Is JW the most widely heard composer in history?

[Josh500 1,615]

What that announcer at the WS said made me think: IS John Williams in fact the most widely heard composer, thus making him the epitome of our culture? HAVE his film scores helped provide the soundtrack to our lives?

It suddenly appears to me like JW MUST indeed be the most widely heard composer in history. I mean, his NAME may ring a bell with only a small percentage of the population, but virtually ANYBODY who goes to the movies must have heard his music at least ONCE. Think about it: in your family and friends circle, who hasn't seen E.T., Jaws, or Star Wars at least once? Or, for the younger generation, again Star Wars, or Harry Potter, Jurassic Park, and maybe Home Alone? Also, his name is mentioned like EVERY DAMN YEAR at the Academy Awards Show . . . so his name gotta stick sometime.

Even if someone shouldn't watch any movies, he composed 3 Official Olympic Themes, which must have been heard in virtually EVERY country of the world. In addition, in the US, he composed the Mission Theme for the NBC news.

So, in conclusion, I believe that he IS the most widely heard composer in history (Mozart and The Beatles may be close seconds), that he IS the epitome of our culture (as far as music is concerned), and that his music HAS helped provide the soundtrack to our lives.

And I also think that we (and by "we" I mean the diehard JW fans) have been kind of underestimating his impact. WE know he's a genius, WE know every little detail about his music and projects, WE know how great he is, but we tend to believe that others KNOW nothing--or next to nothing--about him. We act surprised when we find that they DO, but in fact John Williams might be more known to the general public nowadays than we'd thought.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Goodness no.

I don't even know where to begin disagreeing.

Suffice it to say there are more people alive today who know the names Mozart, Beethoven and Bach than any film composer. More people alive can recognise "Fur Elise" over "The Imperial March". You're mistaking pop-culture for our actual culture (including non-Western cultures, of which there are more people anyway).

Incidentally, even considering the exposure of JW's music, it has not had nearly the same impact that the above composers had, both on the way music is written and the shaping of our culture in general. Sure, lots of people have heard the Star Wars theme, but it has not changed the way people think. It has not provoked thought, enlightenment and evolution like the aformentioned men's music. As someone deeply passionate about music and its function in our lives as well as our culture I can't help but disagree with any such notion.

Pete - not a cynic, but a realist.

[Josh500 1,615]

Goodness no.

I don't even know where to begin disagreeing.

Suffice it to say there are more people alive today who know the names Mozart, Beethoven and Bach than any film composer. More people alive can recognise "Fur Elise" over "The Imperial March". You're mistaking pop-culture for actual culture.

You obviously didn't read my post . . . or at least not carefully enough. Anyway, you just need to read the title of this thread.

I asked "Is he the most widely heard composer in history"? The issue isn't whether his name or some tune of his gets recognized!

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Even considering that, no.

The most widely heard composer in history would have died over a thousand years ago. Talking about the Gregorians here, i.e. the earliest recorded (not in the audio sense, obviously) music. The music (i.e. melodies and harmony, even as bare as it was) created by these people have been used and reused by thousands of people over thousands of years.

I doubt that in the year 3007 we'll be hearing Hedwig's Theme as a fugue, chorale, cantata, etude, sonata, concerto etc....

Oh, and I edited my post a few hundred times after initially posting. I kept thinking of more stuff to say.

[Josh500 1,615]

Incidentally, even considering the exposure of JW's music, it has not had nearly the same impact that the above composers had, both on the way music is written and the shaping of our culture in general. Sure, lots of people have heard the Star Wars theme, but it has not changed the way people think. It has not provoked thought, enlightenment and evolution like the aformentioned men's music. As someone deeply passionate about music and its function in our lives as well as our culture I can't help but disagree with any such notion.Pete - not a cynic, but a realist.

You seem to come up with all sorts of arguments against JW's being the most widely heard composer. But, IMHO, you're overthinking it. Seriously, what kind of music, I ask you, provokes enlightenment and evolution? In any case, that's not at all what I asked. All I asked was, "Is he the most widely heard composer?" Now, I will say that "in history" may a bit of an exaggeration--considering the enduring popularity of Mozart or Beethoven or The Beatles, I honestly don't know whether JW would top the list. But, I think, it's fair to say that JW is pretty much the most widely heard composer today. That doesn't mean, of course, that many people buy his albums or even know his name, God no. Like I also already said I suspect only a very small percentage of the population knows the name John Williams. But JW's music is certainly familiar to almost everybody . . . and NOT just in the Western world. American movies are seen all over the world, you have to remember, so people all over the world have heard his music and recognize the most famous tunes (see the examples I mentioned). What other composer reaches such a wide audience today? No one, that is (except other film composers, of course, but JW just happens to top the list).

Even considering that, no.The most widely heard composer in history would have died over a thousand years ago. Talking about the Gregorians here, i.e. the earliest recorded (not in the audio sense, obviously) music. The music (i.e. melodies and harmony, even as bare as it was) created by these people have been used and reused by thousands of people over thousands of years. I doubt that in the year 3007 we'll be hearing Hedwig's Theme as a fugue, chorale, cantata, etude, sonata, concerto etc....Oh, and I edited my post a few hundred times after initially posting. I kept thinking of more stuff to say.

I'm sorry, this is a ridiculous answer. Gregorians? What are you talking about? They are supposed to be the most widely heard composers??? P.S. What will happen in 3007 is anybody's guess!

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

You seem to come up with all sorts of arguments against JW's being the most widely heard composer. But, IMHO, you're overthinking it.

Actually, I've barely skimmed the surface of this argument. Overthinking would be attempting to argue that JW is the most widely heard composer.

Seriously, what kind of music, I ask you, provokes enlightenment and evolution?

The music that lasts. The music that is among the pinnacle of human achievement. The music that makes us unique. Bach's fugues. Mozart's operas. Beethoven's sonatas and symphonies. Obviously not just these guys - but they certainloy represent the wider process that was our musical development in their time. The virtuoso performer became valued. Music became more than a sacred duty. It became a part of life.

In any case, that's not at all what I asked. All I asked was, "Is he the most widely heard composer?... But, I think, it's fair to say that JW is pretty much the most widely heard composer today.

I know. I was answering your question. Just not with a blanket "yes" or "no". And I still disagree. He may possibly be the most widely heard composer alive, but not considering everyone else who I've mentioned.

But JW's music is certainly familiar to almost everybody . . . and NOT just in the Western world. American movies are seen all over the world, you have to remember, so people all over the world have heard his music and recognize the most famous tunes (see the examples I mentioned). What other composer reaches such a wide audience today? No one, that is (except other film composers, of course, but JW just happens to top the list).

So your speaking for six billion people now? Seriously, despite the popularity of all the movies JW has scored, the amount of people who have actually watched them in the ratio of the human population is not significantly big. At least, not compared to the composers I previously mentioned.

I'm sorry, this is a ridiculous answer. Gregorians? What are you talking about? They are supposed to be the most widely heard composers??? P.S. What will happen in 3007 is anybody's guess!

Er, no, it's not ridiculous. If you're not informed of the development of Gregorian music that's all good and well. But you can't call the basis of Western music as we know it irrelevant, or ridiculous. As I said, there are ancient melodies which have been adapted for over a thousand years. Bach wrote hundreds of cantatas and chorales based on them. More people would have heard these in some shape or form than any of JW's most memorable themes.

And yes, I was being facetious about the 3007 thing.

[Marian Schedenig 8,252]

So, in conclusion, I believe that he IS the most widely heard composer in history (Mozart and The Beatles may be close seconds)

Nearly everyone in the "Western world" has heard Mozart and the Beatles. Be it in a movie, in a public place, on the radio, in school... they're everywhere, even part of our education. People who don't watch movies probably haven't heard a Williams score. People who don't watch Hollywood movies probably haven't heard a Williams score. People who don't watch "fantasy" movies might not have heard a Williams score. Few people have heard his concert works, and I don't see what makes you think everyone has heard his Olympic music (I've heard the fanfare once on TV, and I watched the premiere performance of Call of the Champions because I knew of it).

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I've actually never heard the NBC theme, any Olympic fanfares or any of the generic-Americana-celebratory stuff he wrote.

Granted, Aussie here, but nonetheless...

[pixie_twinkle 48]

In many ways I think it's all a part of our respective cultures. How many people in America know the theme from Coronation Street? And yet in England it's one of the most famous tunes of all! EVERYONE in England knows it, whether they watch the bloody awful show or not! I would go so far as to say the theme from Coronation Street is more widely known and recognised in England than Hedwig's Theme, The Imperial March, Flying from E.T., and The Imperial March combined. It's all relative to your environment. Although I think John Williams is probably the most recognised living composer worldwide, I would have to agree with Magical Me in that overall I think more people would recognise something by Beethoven (Fur Elise, 5th symphony, Ode to Joy, Moonlight Sonata etc). Actually I think the most famous music ever written was probably by Patty and Mildred Hill. They wrote the tune for "Happy Birthday to You". That's better known than anything by John Williams!

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Actually I think the most famous music ever written was probably by Patty and Mildred Hill. They wrote the tune for "Happy Birthday to You". That's better known than anything by John Williams!

I'd put a tie between that and "Ah vous dirais-je, Maman".

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I've actually never heard the NBC theme, any Olympic fanfares or any of the generic-Americana-celebratory stuff he wrote.

Oh dear. The Olympic pieces in particular are Williams essentials! PM me if you don't have them and are interested!

Ray Barnsbury

[JoeinAR 1,949]

yes, he is the most widely heard "film" composer.

[Neimoidian 14]

yes, he is the most widely heard "film" composer.

But not widely known. Whenever I tell people I listen to film music, they mention Morricone. When I say my favourite is Williams, they have no clue who he is. Only when do I mention "Indiana Jones", "Star Wars" and "Jaws", they say that they've heard that pieces, but not the composer's name.

[Josh500 1,615]

I agree with all of you, and many have good points.

But, again, (most of) you don't seem to realize that you don't address the question which is the title of this thread. I didn't ask which piece of music is the most enlightening or thought-provoking. I didn't ask which piece of music is the most recognized in England. I didn't ask which style of music from the 16th century has been the most influential. And most of all, I didn't ask which composer is the most recognized.

Sure, I cannot agree more, the name MOZART and BEETHOVEN and THE BEATLES mean a million times more than JOHN WILLIAMS. But for most people, does that mean they have heard more Mozart or Beethoven pieces than John Williams pieces (in movies, that is)? That's more difficult to answer, I would say. For classical music lovers, sure. But for someone who doesn't like classical music (and there seem to be many many people of that kind), I'm not so sure. For many MANY more people love going to the movies or watch movies on TV than listening to classical music.

Also, many more people like sports--that's the reason why I mentioned the Olypmics. And Marian, maybe you only caught the Olympics theme only once, but it was played over and over again on TV (mostly while the scores were displayed). It wasn't just played at the ceremonies, at least not in 1996! Anyway, my point is, the Olympics is an international event of enormous magnitude. It reaches as big an audience worldwide as it is possible for a single human event!

So, in conclusion, again, John Williams IS very likely the most widely heard composer today.

(If you DO disagree with me, please come up with revelant arguments!)

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

How can anyone come up with relative answers when you've changed your argument every time you've posted? Now we're talking in the context of movies only? Well of course that changes everything.

One doesn't have to be an avid listener of classical music to have heard it. The biggies that were mentioned (Beethoven's Ode to Joy, 5th Symphony etc) have appeared in more TV shows and movies than any film music. Who doesn't associate Vivaldi's Spring movement from The Four Seasons to "dinner party or some kind of function with esteemed guests". Or a grand waltz in a romantic movie with Tchai's Nutcracker. Or any person playing the piano with Fur Elise (or "Heart and Soul", which come to think of it would be even more widely heard than Beethoven!).

Film music has a specific function in a movie or episode of TV. When classical or external music is used it serves a very different purpose - one that is either pushed to the edges of source music and therefore our subconscious (Vivaldi's "Spring", for example which is used so much people don't even realise they know it) , or to the forefront for maximum impact (see: "Ode to Joy/Ninth Symphony" in Die Hard; any character playing a piano piece for a Chopin nocturne or Beethoven sonata). Either way this music is branded into our heads far more than any film composer's. Before you dismiss this argument as irrelevant, the notion that people recognise this music is a very important factor in what is widely heard or not. It does not necessarily mean making the connection with piece and composer, or indeed a name, but the base recognition is important. Otherwise we're just talking about simple exposure, but even then the amount of exposure the average film or TV fan has had to some of the above examples far outweighs that of a memorable movie theme. They just may not know t.

Once again, in conclusion, Williams is far from the most widely heard composer, even in the medium of film or television. Actually, because of these mediums.

Today.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

yes, he is the most widely heard "film" composer.

But not widely known. Whenever I tell people I listen to film music, they mention Morricone. When I say my favourite is Williams, they have no clue who he is. Only when do I mention "Indiana Jones", "Star Wars" and "Jaws", they say that they've heard that pieces, but not the composer's name.

but the question asked "heard", not widely known, and Morricone is a european afterall. Hmm a european being widely known in europe, who'd of thunk it.

[Ollie 1,069]

Joey is correct.

He has carved a nice reputation for himself and is well known around the globe by a small percentage of people but let's not get carried away and and say almost evryone has heard of him.

[Josh500 1,615]

How can anyone come up with relative answers when you've changed your argument every time you've posted? Now we're talking in the context of movies only? Well of course that changes everything.

I'm not changing my arguments every time! I just meant that most people will have heard his music in the movies, that's all! ^^Well, let's agree to disagree!

Before you dismiss this argument as irrelevant, the notion that people recognise this music is a very important factor in what is widely heard or not. It does not necessarily mean making the connection with piece and composer, or indeed a name, but the base recognition is important. Otherwise we're just talking about simple exposure, but even then the amount of exposure the average film or TV fan has had to some of the above examples far outweighs that of a memorable movie theme. They just may not know t.

Well, by their nature films scores don't draw much attention to themselves, except for the hummable Main Themes and/or Titles intended to be recognized (the concert versions). But for all that, people still hear them! Whether people recognize his tunes or not, John Williams is certainly one of the most widely heard (or most exposed, if you will) composers of our time.

[Marian Schedenig 8,252]

But, again, (most of) you don't seem to realize that you don't address the question which is the title of this thread.

I did, at least.

And Marian, maybe you only caught the Olympics theme only once, but it was played over and over again on TV (mostly while the scores were displayed). It wasn't just played at the ceremonies, at least not in 1996! Anyway, my point is, the Olympics is an international event of enormous magnitude. It reaches as big an audience worldwide as it is possible for a single human event!

And it reaches a large number of television station. They don't play Williams during score displays here. And not everyone watches sports.

[John Crichton 4]

And not everyone watches sports.

Since when?!

[Red 75]

More people alive can recognise "Fur Elise" over "The Imperial March".

I doubt that.

[Marian Schedenig 8,252]

I don't.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I'm not changing my arguments every time! I just meant that most people will have heard his music in the movies, that's all! ^^Well, let's agree to disagree!

Indeed we will. I still have trouble with the massively general "most people" thing. I'm curious - are you still talking for 6 billion people and their culture? "More people like sports" - more people than what? People who don't like sports? The Gregorians were more relevant than that statement.

Well, by their nature films scores don't draw much attention to themselves, except for the hummable Main Themes and/or Titles intended to be recognized (the concert versions). But for all that, people still hear them! Whether people recognize his tunes or not, John Williams is certainly one of the most widely heard (or most exposed, if you will) composers of our time.

Yes, but the frequency of playback of any of the aformentioned pieces or composers' music in our everyday culture still outweighs the frequency of any JW piece. The ratio of movies or television episodes containing "Fur Elise" to movies or episodes containing any JW music is massive. You can't possibly still argue that more movies with JW's music exist than Beethoven's?

Film music is rarely played on radio. Film music is rarely performed in concert. Film music is almost always completely delegated to its original function - accompanying the film it was writted for.

But you still haven't provided any argument as to how he is even one of the most widely heard composers. You've just kind of repeated over and over again that he is and completely ignored my rebuffals (and contrary to what you may believe, my inclusion of the Gregorian chants was relevant to your topic title - "Is JW the most widely heard composer in history?.

More people alive can recognise "Fur Elise" over "The Imperial March".

I doubt that.

Again, I never said people could name the composer or even the piece. Many people associate the piece with Mozart. But it's undeniable that more people have heard that piece multiple times than any piece of film music.

[Jacob 0]

I had to lookup Fur Elise. But I immediately recognized it. (I couldn't have told you the composer either.)

We had this toy Playmobil piano when I was little. You'd press the keyboard and it'd play an annoying, dinky electronic version of the tune. When Williams gets the same treatment (from a non-franchise tie in mind you) then I'll believe he's been more widely heard then Ludwig. Maybe.

And I almost can't believe I found the toy so easily by searching for playmobil fur elise. Almost. I really shouldn't be surprised at what can be easily found on the Internets anymore.

[indy4 155]

What that announcer at the WS said made me think: IS John Williams in fact the most widely heard composer, thus making him the epitome of our culture? HAVE his film scores helped provide the soundtrack to our lives?

It suddenly appears to me like JW MUST indeed be the most widely heard composer in history. I mean, his NAME may ring a bell with only a small percentage of the population, but virtually ANYBODY who goes to the movies must have heard his music at least ONCE. Think about it: in your family and friends circle, who hasn't seen E.T., Jaws, or Star Wars at least once? Or, for the younger generation, again Star Wars, or Harry Potter, Jurassic Park, and maybe Home Alone? Also, his name is mentioned like EVERY DAMN YEAR at the Academy Awards Show . . . so his name gotta stick sometime.

Even if someone shouldn't watch any movies, he composed 3 Official Olympic Themes, which must have been heard in virtually EVERY country of the world. In addition, in the US, he composed the Mission Theme for the NBC news.

So, in conclusion, I believe that he IS the most widely heard composer in history (Mozart and The Beatles may be close seconds), that he IS the epitome of our culture (as far as music is concerned), and that his music HAS helped provide the soundtrack to our lives.

I agree with you, Josh. I think there is only one film score that is more popular than JW's, and that's The Murder from Psycho. But still, because JW has so many to attribute, eg Jaws, Superman, STar Wars, Indiana Jones, E.T. Harry Potter, Jurassic Park, etc., he is the most well known IMO.

I think the only better known music is nursery rhymes and stuff.

And I also think that we (and by "we" I mean the diehard JW fans) have been kind of underestimating his impact. WE know he's a genius, WE know every little detail about his music and projects, WE know how great he is, but we tend to believe that others KNOW nothing--or next to nothing--about him. We act surprised when we find that they DO, but in fact John Williams might be more known to the general public nowadays than we'd thought.

Excactly. I met a DJ the other day, who plays pop music and stuff. He asked me my favorite song, and I said Main Title March from Superman. I told him it was by the same guy who wrote the music for Star Wars and Indiana Jones, and he said "You mean John Williams?" I was utterly shocked...I expected him to know his music, not his name! We do underestimate the general public, they are more informed than we think.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

'Film composer' maybe. Composer, hell no.

[Jeshopk 8]

Very tough to say. Almost everyone has heard his music.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

but against stuff like Beethoven's 5th? Lets not forget the headstart Beethoven had....I mean, we are talking about the most widely heard composer in history right?

[Josh500 1,615]

I'm not changing my arguments every time! I just meant that most people will have heard his music in the movies, that's all! ^^Well, let's agree to disagree!

Indeed we will. I still have trouble with the massively general "most people" thing. I'm curious - are you still talking for 6 billion people and their culture? "More people like sports" - more people than what? People who don't like sports? The Gregorians were more relevant than that statement.

Well, you took that out of context! I said (and I quote), "For classical music lovers, sure. But for someone who doesn't like classical music (and there seem to be many many people of that kind), I'm not so sure. For many MANY more people love going to the movies or watch movies on TV than listening to classical music."

I meant many more people like watching movies than listening to classical music.

I don't really know why you keep mentioning the Gregorians! If you keep the title of this thread in mind, that shouldn't even come up!

Well, by their nature films scores don't draw much attention to themselves, except for the hummable Main Themes and/or Titles intended to be recognized (the concert versions). But for all that, people still hear them! Whether people recognize his tunes or not, John Williams is certainly one of the most widely heard (or most exposed, if you will) composers of our time.

Yes, but the frequency of playback of any of the aformentioned pieces or composers' music in our everyday culture still outweighs the frequency of any JW piece. The ratio of movies or television episodes containing "Fur Elise" to movies or episodes containing any JW music is massive. You can't possibly still argue that more movies with JW's music exist than Beethoven's?

Film music is rarely played on radio. Film music is rarely performed in concert. Film music is almost always completely delegated to its original function - accompanying the film it was writted for.

But you still haven't provided any argument as to how he is even one of the most widely heard composers. You've just kind of repeated over and over again that he is and completely ignored my rebuffals (and contrary to what you may believe, my inclusion of the Gregorian chants was relevant to your topic title - "Is JW the most widely heard composer in history?.

Well, like I said, "in history" might be an exaggeration, although it wouldn't surprise me at all if that turned out to be true, as well! But I stand by my statement that he is the most widely heard composer today! (And I am not just talking about film music.) The Gregorians have nothing to do with it!

To make it clearer, let me say this:

John Williams scored (in order of ALL TIME GROSSES WORLDWIDE):

Harry Potter & The Sorcerer's Stone (976,5 million)

Star Wars - The Phantom Menace (924,3 million)

Jurassic Park (914,7 million)

Harry Potter & The Chamber of Secrets (879 million)

Star Wars - Revenge of the Sith (850 million)

E.T. (793 million)

Star Wars (775 million)

The Lost World: Jurassic Park (618,6 million)

Also:

Jaws 1+2

Indiana Jones Trilogy

Home Alone 1+2

Saving Private Ryan (482 million)

War Of The Worlds (591,7 million)

and so on . . .

Most movies are considered monster hits if they reach 300 million!

So can you imagine how many tickets those JW-scored movies above must have sold in order to reach those numbers? Can you imagine how many people watched those movies (in some cases over and over again)? And I mean not just in the theaters, but on TV, on video, on DVD? Because, you have to understand that, every time someone watches one of those movies, he or she is--consciously or unconsciously--listening to JW at the same time! That's what I meant by most widely heard composer. Whether his name or one of his tunes gets recognized isn't an issue! Even as we're discussing this right now, can you begin to imagine HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE WATCHING HARRY POTTER or STAR WARS or INDIANA JONES on DVD RIGHT NOW??? Not just where you live, either, but in Japan and in South Africa and in Brazil and in Canada and in the Netherlands and in Germany and in the UK and in Mexico and . . . (well, you get the picture)??? It's mind-boggling, isn't it?

Whether someone heard "Für Elise" accidentally 10 times in a TV spot last year isn't an issue either!

[Jeshopk 8]

I'm not counting dead listeners. But the record player/radio hasn't been around for long. I'm beginning to think Williams may be the most heard composer. But then again, it could be the composer of 'Happy Birthday' instead. How many countries use that tune?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I believe "Happy Birthday" was composed by Mr. Traditional. Dunno what his first name was.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I believe "Happy Birthday" was composed by Mr. Traditional. Dunno what his first name was.

He's done a lot of stuff, actually. Not so much recently, though.

Ray Barnsbury

[pete 910]

I've actually never heard the NBC theme, any Olympic fanfares or any of the generic-Americana-celebratory stuff he wrote.Granted, Aussie here, but nonetheless...

I'm an Aussie too, and I heard those pieces quite alot. I've been in Korea the last 5 years, so I'm not sure if they still use it, but Channel 7 used to use the NBC news theme for their news, so I would say a fairly decent percentage of the Aussie TV watching population would have heard it, and heard it often.

Here it is,

I'd be pretty surprised if anyone with a TV set had never heard that piece

The Olympic Spirit used to be used in Rugby League coverage in the 1990s.

Here it is,

Olympic Fanfare, I've also heard that a few times at sporting events. I remember hearing it a Rugby Union test match in Sydney.You may not have heard these, but being from Down Under certainly doesn't hurt your chances of hearing them, like I said, if you have a TV set, you have probably heard snippets of the NBC theme thousands of times.

Is Williams the most heard composer, yes I think without a doubt.

A growing population and the mass media. he sheer number of people watching these movies, seriously. Unless you live in a third world country and are starving, you've heard Williams' music.

[indy4 155]

Is there a recording of JW's new NBC themes on YouTube?

[pixie_twinkle 48]

I believe "Happy Birthday" was composed by Mr. Traditional. Dunno what his first name was.

If you'd read all the posts in this thread you'd know exactly who composed Happy Birthday!

[Jediwashington 59]

Humm, this is a tough question. Within the life of the composer, Williams win's hands down. His music gets recorded one day, and a few months later it has circled the globe in under a few days. It is a product of our technology, but very few other composers have been in that situation of having their music famous within only a few months multiple times. Especially composers of 1700 and 1800's where they did not live to see the worldwide spread and success of their music, only local and travels.

As for being the most widely heard, I might. When people think of orchestral "classical" music, most would likely think of Mozart and Beethoven. The common joe on the street couldn't distinguish between the two if you let them take a listen to their respective works, but would know it was old music. John Williams on the other hand doesn't have the notoriety of being a classical composer, but has the advantage of being a pops composer, like Leroy Anderson and George Gershwin. He is the most well known film composer, and I believe most people could probably humm the Star Wars or Jaws tune to you. So I'll say Mozart and Beethoven and Bach has the reputation of name notoriety, but not necessarily music memorability. When Williams is an obscure composer name, but has some of the most heard music.

Comparing the two is ridiculous though. Williams stands on the shoulders of giants, and the difference of eras and time frame to gain popularity are too great to make comparing worth the effort. They're just different situations. Williams is popular because he knows how to use the media and film to advocate orchestral music and has used recording all his life. Classical composers are not entertainment industry folks, but enlightened thinkers who spent time working on music to make it better.

~JW

[Mark_73 0]

I've actually never heard the NBC theme, any Olympic fanfares or any of the generic-Americana-celebratory stuff he wrote.

Oh dear. The Olympic pieces in particular are Williams essentials! PM me if you don't have them and are interested!

Ray Barnsbury

Of course! Those pieces are very essential. But I guess only for those who are interested in Williams repertoire.

I believe that most people rather associate songs like One Moment In Time by Whitney Housten with the Olym-

pics, in this case LA 1984. Greetz! >Mark<

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Well, you took that out of context! I said (and I quote), "For classical music lovers, sure. But for someone who doesn't like classical music (and there seem to be many many people of that kind), I'm not so sure. For many MANY more people love going to the movies or watch movies on TV than listening to classical music."

I meant many more people like watching movies than listening to classical music.

Yes I know you said that. I was making the point that depite the original mediums of classical music (i.e. performance in concert; albums etc) it has extended to be part of the more popular, relevant parts of our lives - television, internet and of course, film. Your argument as relevant to the topic is, again, missing.

I don't really know why you keep mentioning the Gregorians! If you keep the title of this thread in mind, that shouldn't even come up!

Have you been reading my posts? You asked if JW is the most widely heard composer in history. "In history" implies at least the last thousand years (before that there was no records of notated music). And the chants sung by the Gregorians in sacred ceremonies fall under the category of "history" wouldn't you say? They weren't in a parallel universe or anything. These chants were performed over hundreds of years, and even after they phased out in the renaissance and baroque periods, composers continued to draw upon them for their music. Again, Bach composed countless cantatas and chorales on these melodies. I'm not suggesting everyone today has heard those, but since they were written the amount of people who would have heard or been exposed to them would be in the millions.

But of course, then you added "today" as the timeframe after I mentioned that.

Well, like I said, "in history" might be an exaggeration, although it wouldn't surprise me at all if that turned out to be true, as well! But I stand by my statement that he is the most widely heard composer today! (And I am not just talking about film music.) The Gregorians have nothing to do with it!

Again, you keep telling me to go back to your original topoic title. But "in history" is still hanging there. In that case, the Gregorians have everything to do with it.

To make it clearer, let me say this:

So can you imagine how many tickets those JW-scored movies above must have sold in order to reach those numbers? Can you imagine how many people watched those movies (in some cases over and over again)? And I mean not just in the theaters, but on TV, on video, on DVD? Because, you have to understand that, every time someone watches one of those movies, he or she is--consciously or unconsciously--listening to JW at the same time! That's what I meant by most widely heard composer.

Oh, but you're forgetting the thousand or so movies in the last hundred years which have made use of classical music in some way or another. And not just classical music, but particular pieces (Fur Elise, 5th Symphony, Ode to Joy). Therefore the most likely candidate for the most widely heard composer today would be Ludwig van Beethoven.

Whether his name or one of his tunes gets recognized isn't an issue! Even as we're discussing this right now, can you begin to imagine HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE WATCHING HARRY POTTER or STAR WARS or INDIANA JONES on DVD RIGHT NOW??? Not just where you live, either, but in Japan and in South Africa and in Brazil and in Canada and in the Netherlands and in Germany and in the UK and in Mexico and . . . (well, you get the picture)??? It's mind-boggling, isn't it?

Not really, when you consider the millions of people over the last hundred years who have heard a Beethoven work in a film, television show, on the radio, on the internet, performed in concert, at a child's piano recital...

And I haven't mentioned names or recognition since two of my posts ago when you suggested it was irrelevant. I was fine with that, but I still provided a solid argument.

Besides, you'd be surprised how many people have never seen, or have no desire to see a Harry Potter, Star Wars or Indiana Jones film. Ticket sales mean nothing. Some people see these movies over five times at the cinema. That's not an extra five people who have been exposed to his music, that's the same person five times. Which would not fall under "widely heard", but more "frequently heard".

Whether someone heard "Für Elise" accidentally 10 times in a TV spot last year isn't an issue either!

According to you it is. You stated that "...by their nature films scores don't draw much attention to themselves". If they've heard film music accidentally and it's relevant to the argument, then so is hearing Fur Elise accidentally.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

First of all let's get some semantics straight:

Recognition is a pretty general term that has a lot of meaning. The two meanings are: merely recognizing something because you've been exposed to it, and recognizing someting because you are capable of identifying it. In the context of popularity and marketing in this day and age, the former has little meaning so we will disregard it. It doesn't matter if you recognize something by saying "I've heard that before" because in this day and age, you've heard millions of things.

So with that meaning of recognition in mind, there are two documented popularity constants in the universe:

1. The Coca Cola Logo being the most famous symbol (that is not just a single color...or a single arrow) on the planet, being recognized by more people than even the Christian Cross...or even the red octagonal STOP sign.

2. The opening of Beethoven's 5th Symphony being the most readily identified piece of music in the world.

[Josh500 1,615]

Well, you took that out of context! I said (and I quote), "For classical music lovers, sure. But for someone who doesn't like classical music (and there seem to be many many people of that kind), I'm not so sure. For many MANY more people love going to the movies or watch movies on TV than listening to classical music."

I meant many more people like watching movies than listening to classical music.

Yes I know you said that. I was making the point that depite the original mediums of classical music (i.e. performance in concert; albums etc) it has extended to be part of the more popular, relevant parts of our lives - television, internet and of course, film. Your argument as relevant to the topic is, again, missing.

I don't really know why you keep mentioning the Gregorians! If you keep the title of this thread in mind, that shouldn't even come up!

Have you been reading my posts? You asked if JW is the most widely heard composer in history. "In history" implies at least the last thousand years (before that there was no records of notated music). And the chants sung by the Gregorians in sacred ceremonies fall under the category of "history" wouldn't you say? They weren't in a parallel universe or anything. These chants were performed over hundreds of years, and even after they phased out in the renaissance and baroque periods, composers continued to draw upon them for their music. Again, Bach composed countless cantatas and chorales on these melodies. I'm not suggesting everyone today has heard those, but since they were written the amount of people who would have heard or been exposed to them would be in the millions.

But of course, then you added "today" as the timeframe after I mentioned that.

Well, like I said, "in history" might be an exaggeration, although it wouldn't surprise me at all if that turned out to be true, as well! But I stand by my statement that he is the most widely heard composer today! (And I am not just talking about film music.) The Gregorians have nothing to do with it!

Again, you keep telling me to go back to your original topoic title. But "in history" is still hanging there. In that case, the Gregorians have everything to do with it.

To make it clearer, let me say this:

So can you imagine how many tickets those JW-scored movies above must have sold in order to reach those numbers? Can you imagine how many people watched those movies (in some cases over and over again)? And I mean not just in the theaters, but on TV, on video, on DVD? Because, you have to understand that, every time someone watches one of those movies, he or she is--consciously or unconsciously--listening to JW at the same time! That's what I meant by most widely heard composer.

Oh, but you're forgetting the thousand or so movies in the last hundred years which have made use of classical music in some way or another. And not just classical music, but particular pieces (Fur Elise, 5th Symphony, Ode to Joy). Therefore the most likely candidate for the most widely heard composer today would be Ludwig van Beethoven.

Whether his name or one of his tunes gets recognized isn't an issue! Even as we're discussing this right now, can you begin to imagine HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE WATCHING HARRY POTTER or STAR WARS or INDIANA JONES on DVD RIGHT NOW??? Not just where you live, either, but in Japan and in South Africa and in Brazil and in Canada and in the Netherlands and in Germany and in the UK and in Mexico and . . . (well, you get the picture)??? It's mind-boggling, isn't it?

Not really, when you consider the millions of people over the last hundred years who have heard a Beethoven work in a film, television show, on the radio, on the internet, performed in concert, at a child's piano recital...

And I haven't mentioned names or recognition since two of my posts ago when you suggested it was irrelevant. I was fine with that, but I still provided a solid argument.

Besides, you'd be surprised how many people have never seen, or have no desire to see a Harry Potter, Star Wars or Indiana Jones film. Ticket sales mean nothing. Some people see these movies over five times at the cinema. That's not an extra five people who have been exposed to his music, that's the same person five times. Which would not fall under "widely heard", but more "frequently heard".

Whether someone heard "Für Elise" accidentally 10 times in a TV spot last year isn't an issue either!

According to you it is. You stated that "...by their nature films scores don't draw much attention to themselves". If they've heard film music accidentally and it's relevant to the argument, then so is hearing Fur Elise accidentally.

A few points:

1. If all the Gregorian chants sung in all the churches of the world were composed by ONE COMPOSER you might have a point.

2. You have to consider this: JW isn't an ordinary composer, ie. someone who writes music, either performs it himself or lets someone else perform it, and then tries to sell as many albums as possible. He does that too, of course, but he has the huge benefit of the MOVIES. The movies, which have included some of the most famous in the history of the cinema (think about that for a minute!), spread his music around the globe. And those movies are adversited aggressively in practically every medium there is! So whenever one of his movies is played, JW's music is played at the same time! (And before you say again that not everyone is a Harry Potter fan . . . believe me, in today's world, many more people--especially younger people--are familiar with the name Harry Potter than Beethoven.)

3. I'm starting to think that in Australia only classical music is used in TV spots, but since you mention that, how about when a new Star Wars movie is due to be released? Most movie trailers shown on TV (at least in the US) use ORIGINAL MUSIC, because by that time the score has already been recorded. And those TV spots air around the world, not just in one particular country!

4. You said: Oh, but you're forgetting the thousand or so movies in the last hundred years which have made use of classical music in some way or another. Again, if all classical music were written by ONE COMPOSER you might have a point. And since you keep coming back to Beethoven--it hasn't been that long since Beethoven's death! Not even 200 years! And whether you believe it or not, when Beethoven was active, the world population was barely 1 billion! Nowadays, at the prime of JW's career, you might say, we have over 6,5 billion! Hard to imagine, isn't it? But not only that, in today's world we have the movies, CDs, TV, internet, and DVDs . . . which all advertise (again, directly or indirectly) the newest compositions of JW! I don't see any Beethoven albums climbing the billboard charts.

5. So, in conclusion, whether you believe it or not (or like it or not), the truth is, John Williams IS the most widely heard composer in history.

If you don't agree with me, Magical Me, like I said, let's agree to disagree!

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

So, in conclusion, whether you believe it or not (or like it or not), the truth is, John Williams IS the most widely heard composer "in history."

Your truth is a lie.

[Ollie 1,069]

5. So, in conclusion, whether you believe it or not (or like it or not), the truth is, John Williams IS the most widely heard composer in history.

If you don't agree with me, Magical Me, like I said, let's agree to disagree!

Do you realize that most people who go to movies could really care less about the film scores?

Myself and 100 of people hear Train horns everyday because there is a railroad crossing behind my office plus there are other businesses, does that make it the epitome of our culture?

[pixie_twinkle 48]

5. So, in conclusion, whether you believe it or not (or like it or not), the truth is, John Williams IS the most widely heard composer in history.

This is all just conjecture on everyone's part. Why are you being so defensive about this? Settle down! At the end of the day soes it really matter? John Williams' music is perhaps the most widely recognised of all contemporary composers. Can't that be enough? Nothing conclusive can possibly be achieved by trying to compare him to the great composers of yesteryear. I know that you desperately WANT him to be the most widely heard composer in history, and if you want to believe that then fine, but it's an argument that you can't possibly win unless you are willing to travel the world polling people from every continent.

[Josh500 1,615]

5. So, in conclusion, whether you believe it or not (or like it or not), the truth is, John Williams IS the most widely heard composer in history.

This is all just conjecture on everyone's part. Why are you being so defensive about this? Settle down! At the end of the day soes it really matter? John Williams' music is perhaps the most widely recognised of all contemporary composers. Can't that be enough? Nothing conclusive can possibly be achieved by trying to compare him to the great composers of yesteryear. I know that you desperately WANT him to be the most widely heard composer in history, and if you want to believe that then fine, but it's an argument that you can't possibly win unless you are willing to travel the world polling people from every continent.

Well, it's not that I desperately want it, it's what I honestly believe. If I sound defensive, it's probably because Magical Me is acting like what I believe is the most ridiculous thing he/she's ever heard!

Sure I can't be sure. In fact, no one can. But that doesn't mean I can't tell you what I believe, and put forth arguments to support it.

[Ollie 1,069]

I've actually never heard the NBC theme, any Olympic fanfares or any of the generic-Americana-celebratory stuff he wrote.

Oh dear. The Olympic pieces in particular are Williams essentials! PM me if you don't have them and are interested!

Ray Barnsbury

Of course! Those pieces are very essential. But I guess only for those who are interested in Williams repertoire.

I believe that most people rather associate songs like One Moment In Time by Whitney Housten with the Olym-

pics, in this case LA 1984. Greetz! >Mark<

One Moment In Time was for the 1988 Olympics.

[publicist 4,643]

So, in conclusion, whether you believe it or not (or like it or not), the truth is, John Williams IS the most widely heard composer in history.

FAN BOY SIZE MEASURING ALERT! Who's got the longest? It's my pet composer!!

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Well, it's not that I desperately want it, it's what I honestly believe. If I sound defensive, it's probably because Magical Me is acting like what I believe is the most ridiculous thing he/she's ever heard!

I'm sorry you can't see the truth then. Because it is one of the most ridiculous things I've heard.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I think more people know the name Beethoven than John Williams. Not everyone watches movies or listens to music like we do.

[indy4 155]

That may be true, but I think that more people know the music of JW than Beethoven or Mozart.

It's not all about watching movies. Many little kids know the murder music from Psycho, without even hearing about the Psycho.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

1. If all the Gregorian chants sung in all the churches of the world were composed by ONE COMPOSER you might have a point.

Oh, but they don't need to have been written by one composer. A single chant utilised as many times as it has would still have been heard by more people than the Raiders march.

You have to consider this: JW isn't an ordinary composer, ie. someone who writes music, either performs it himself or lets someone else perform it, and then tries to sell as many albums as possible. He does that too, of course, but he has the huge benefit of the MOVIES. The movies, which have included some of the most famous in the history of the cinema (think about that for a minute!), spread his music around the globe. And those movies are adversited aggressively in practically every medium there is! So whenever one of his movies is played, JW's music is played at the same time! (And before you say again that not everyone is a Harry Potter fan . . . believe me, in today's world, many more people--especially younger people--are familiar with the name Harry Potter than Beethoven.)

And you have to consider this: I've already stated numerous times that more films exist with Beethoven's music than Williams'. You're having trouble grasping this concept. Add to that the other mediums through which his music is heard where JW's is not, at least not as much.

3. I'm starting to think that in Australia only classical music is used in TV spots, but since you mention that, how about when a new Star Wars movie is due to be released? Most movie trailers shown on TV (at least in the US) use ORIGINAL MUSIC, because by that time the score has already been recorded. And those TV spots air around the world, not just in one particular country!

I don't even understand what you're saying here. What to TV spots have to do with what I've been saying? And what does my nantionality have to do with it? We see the same shows and films that the US does.

4. You said: Oh, but you're forgetting the thousand or so movies in the last hundred years which have made use of classical music in some way or another. Again, if all classical music were written by ONE COMPOSER you might have a point.

Indeed, that's why I became more specific and named Beethoven.

Hard to imagine, isn't it? But not only that, in today's world we have the movies, CDs, TV, internet, and DVDs . . . which all advertise (again, directly or indirectly) the newest compositions of JW! I don't see any Beethoven albums climbing the billboard charts.

Wow, this is a big gaping hole of logic. Beethoven albums don't climb the charts because they don't appeal to as wide an audience as the new album from Kelly Clarkson. But JW albums don't often climb the charts either. And when they do, it's not because of JW's name, or even the music. It's because of the popularity of the film it was written for. It's Star Wars that people are buying, not John Williams.

Incidentally, I'd estimate the amount of albums containing Beethoven's music to be in the thousands, whereas albums containing Williams' music would have scarcely surpassed 200. (I'm not talking sales here - I'm talking individual albums)

5. So, in conclusion, whether you believe it or not (or like it or not), the truth is, John Williams IS the most widely heard composer in history.

No, I don't believe it. Because it is simply not fact. Your arguments are far from airtight (not that I'm saying mine are).

I'm sorry you can't see the truth, as you are blinded by fanboyism.

That may be true, but I think that more people know the music of JW than Beethoven or Mozart.

Guessing you haven't even read the last page.