Why are American orchestras...so....

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

The topic title pretty much says it all. The best recordings of music generally seems to come out of European orchestras...so I was wondering if any musical inclined/maestros around here could shed light about potential differences in training/culture that could lead to such...well...quite frankly vast differences in performing qualities.

Not even the Boston Pops under the baton of Williams quite holds a candle to the London Symphony under the same man.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The Boston Pops is hardly one of the best orchestra's the USA has to offer.

At least I hope it is'nt.......

[Greg1138 3]

You are making a somewhat unfair comparison.....the LSO are generally considered to be the best orchestra in the world.

IMHO the Boston Pops/Symphony don't sound "lame" in the slightest.....just different....just as any two groups wouold sound if compared with eachother....

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I do not know the BSO, but the Boston Pops is very "Middle Of The Road".

Average, easily digestible arrangements performed in such a way that they sound, nice...pleasant, but a bit bland and flavorless.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

ahh another American bashing thread at JWFAN, nothing new here.

[Josh500 1,615]

A better question would be, "Why are current European film composers so lame?"

Hans Zimmer, Patrick Doyle, Nicholas Hooper . . .

P.S. What a STUPID thread!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Josh, you have really become a dumbass prick in the last year or so.

[MrScratch 294]

The Pops is not middle of the road, they have recorded some definitive or close to definitive performances of several of JWs pieces. Jane Eyre, Empire of the Sun, Slave Children and 1941 for instance have never sounded better. Their recordings of the Star Wars Main Title, Imperial March, Superman March, E.T. and The Raiders March are among the very best out there.

[Josh500 1,615]

Josh, you have really become a dumbass prick in the last year or so.

Thanks, and you always have been!

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Josh, you have really become a dumbass prick in the last year or so.

perhaps, but he is dead on this time.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

At least I am consistant!

[Josh500 1,615]

The Pops is not middle of the road, they have recorded some definitive or close to definitive performances of several of JWs pieces. Jane Eyre, Empire of the Sun, Slave Children and 1941 for instance have never sounded better. Their recordings of the Star Wars Main Title, Imperial March, Superman March, E.T. and The Raiders March are among the very best out there.

I agree.

I admit I don't know too many orchestras (LSO, BPO, BSO, New York Philharmonic, Utah Symphony), but I imagine some of JW's pieces are horrendously difficult to play. And they always do a decent job. The Spielberg/Williams Collaboration (I love every track on it!), Williams on Williams, and Summon the Heroes include some of the best performances of JW pieces.

[scissorhands 16]

That's quite an unfair statement, especially if you compare a Pops Orchestra to the LSO. The USA have some of the greatest orchestras in the world, as good as even the European ones. New York Philharmonic, L.A. Philharmonic, St. Louis Symphony, Cleveland Orchestra, Atlanta SO, Baltimore SO, and so on.

As for recordings, it depends on the work, but some of my favorite recordings have been made by American orchestras.

[MrScratch 294]

I imagine some of JW's pieces are horrendously difficult to play. And they always do a decent job.

Unlike the Prague Philharmonic, which is in... Europe.

Summon the Heroes

I completely forgot about Summon The Heroes, that performance has balls.

[Josh500 1,615]

Sure, LSO is fantastic and I'm a big fan, but what other great orchestras are there in Europe, anyway?

[scissorhands 16]

Only in the UK you have (among the great orchestras):

Hallé Orchestra

London Philharmonic

Royal Philharmonic

the 5 BBC Orchestras

Bournemouth Symphony

City of Birmingham Symphony

and so forth...

[Josh500 1,615]

Only in the UK you have (among the great orchestras):

Hallé Orchestra

London Philharmonic

Royal Philharmonic

the 5 BBC Orchestras

Bournemouth Symphony

City of Birmingham Symphony

and so forth...

Some of New York's finest orchestras, in alphabetical order for you!

Albany Symphony Orchestra

American Symphony Orchestra

Brooklyn Philharmonic

Buffalo Philharmonic Orchestra

Chautauqua Symphony Orchestra

Long Island Philharmonic

Massapequa Philharmonic Orchestra

NBC Symphony Orchestra

New York Philharmonic

New York Symphony Orchestra

Orchard Park Symphony Orchestra

Orpheus Chamber Orchestra

Richmond County Orchestra

Rochester Philharmonic Orchestra

Syracuse Symphony Orchestra

Utica Symphony Orchestra

...and so forth!

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

Sure, LSO is fantastic and I'm a big fan, but what other great orchestras are there in Europe, anyway?

Prague...

[Luke Skywalker 1,801]

I thought people regarded some of the Hollywood studio Symphony performances indistinguisable from the recent LSO output?

I dont have any complains on american orchestras.

[Jamesyboy 3]

I think kudos really has to go out to the Hollywood Studio Orchestra, which has to record film score after film score with limited rehearsal time and tight deadlines, all with different conductors. Those guys rock! We wouldn't have some classic film score without them.

Jamesyboy - who thinks quality is good with any high profile orchestra, US or Europe, but it's the conductor that takes them great.

edit: Looks look Luke and I were typing at the same time!

[scissorhands 16]

Some of New York's finest orchestras, in alphabetical order for you!

The NBC SO doesn't exist anymore. From those you mention there are quite a few that are actually very good (the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra is one of the leading chamber ensembles in the States), but of course the NYPhil stands out on its own.

[Josh500 1,615]

I think kudos really has to go out to the Hollywood Studio Orchestra, which has to record film score after film score with limited rehearsal time and tight deadlines, all with different conductors. Those guys rock! We wouldn't have some classic film score without them.

Jamesyboy - who thinks quality is good with any high profile orchestra, US or Europe, but it's the conductor that takes them great.

I thought HSO is just a group of talented musicians hired on a project-to-project basis...

But yeah, they always do one hell of a job. On KotCS too, by the way.

[scissorhands 16]

Sure, LSO is fantastic and I'm a big fan, but what other great orchestras are there in Europe, anyway?

Prague...

But that's only an orchestra formed by musicians from many different places just for recording purposes. Not to be confused with the real Prague Philharmonic.

[Josh500 1,615]

At least I am consistant!

Actually, you're getting worse . . . it's spelled "consistent."

[MissPadmé 17]

Aren't the Boston Pops Orchestra and the Boston Symphony Orchestra the Same players?

I don't think amarican orchestras are lame... they are really fine performers and it depends on the conductors and on the pieces most o the time how they sound.

I love the NY Symphony Orchstra.

or the Chicago One

but my alltime favourites are London Symphony Orchestra and Wiener Philharmoniker

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Aren't the Boston Pops Orchestra and the Boston Symphony Orchestra the Same players?

The BPO is the BSO minus some of the main musicians.

[indy4 155]

There's nothing wrong with the American orchestras. LSO is simply the best, but that doesn't mean there aren't good ones here. Indy 4 was recorded in Los Angeles, but it sounded fine to me. And I think the Boston Pops are really top notch.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

And I think the Boston Pops are really top notch.

Were is Alex?

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Hmm, let's leave stirring the pot just for the sake of it to Joe. And as others have said, the Hollywood studio musicians are some of the best in the world.

[Ollie 1,063]

There's nothing wrong with American orchestras. I've heard worse European orchestras, just listen to a couple of Goldsmith's scores like Rambo III and King Solomon's Mines.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

There's no such thing as "THE Hollywood Studio Orchestra" it's a collection of contract players that are cycled in and out with different scores. In fact a lot of the players sometimes end up being one timers. It generally tends to suck.

Then there's the Hollywood Symphony, which is more along the lines of a real symphony orchestra.

But back to the topic, I don't know, most of the American performances that I have heard tend to be more...mechanical and...efficient shall we say? Spot on, but mechanical. I detect a lot more flavor and character in European orchestras.

Oh and Mark, what's wrong with King Solomon's Mines?

ahh another American bashing thread at JWFAN, nothing new here.

[Red 75]

There are good and bad orchestras everywhere, it just so happens that the LSO is one of the very best in the world. I'm a fan of the Boston Pops, as Mr. Scratch said some of their performances of Williams pieces are second to none.

By the way, Prague sucks.

[Henry B 50]

Only in the UK you have (among the great orchestras):

Hallé Orchestra

London Philharmonic

Royal Philharmonic

the 5 BBC Orchestras

Bournemouth Symphony

City of Birmingham Symphony

and so forth...

Some of New York's finest orchestras, in alphabetical order for you!

Albany Symphony Orchestra

American Symphony Orchestra

Brooklyn Philharmonic

Buffalo Philharmonic Orchestra

Chautauqua Symphony Orchestra

Long Island Philharmonic

Massapequa Philharmonic Orchestra

NBC Symphony Orchestra

New York Philharmonic

New York Symphony Orchestra

Orchard Park Symphony Orchestra

Orpheus Chamber Orchestra

Richmond County Orchestra

Rochester Philharmonic Orchestra

Syracuse Symphony Orchestra

Utica Symphony Orchestra

...and so forth!

So you think there are that many excellent orchestras in New York alone*, but you think the LSO is the only good orchestra in the entire continent of Europe?

* I very much doubt you're familiar with all of these orchestras; you probably just pulled a list from Wikipedia.

A better question would be, "Why are current European film composers so lame?" rolleyes.gif

Hans Zimmer, Patrick Doyle, Nicholas Hooper . . .

P.S. What a STUPID thread!

Patrick Doyle is lame? Yeah, sure...

[John Crichton 4]

Yes, just because GoF is boring crud doesn't mean that Doyle always is. Listen to Henry V and then tell me that he sucks.

[Henry B 50]

Well, I disagree with you on Goblet of Fire to an extent, but of course Henry V is awesome! A Little Princess is another one worth checking out.

[Marian Schedenig 8,238]

You are making a somewhat unfair comparison.....the LSO are generally considered to be the best orchestra in the world.

And the same goes for the Wiener Philharmoniker. They're both among the top orchestras in the world, I'm juts a little sick of Austrians "generally" assuming "our" orchestra is the greatest and the British doing the same with the LSO.

There are plenty of excellent American orchestras. From what I've read, the LA Phil are generally ranked in the same league as the LSO and VPO. The NYP have a long list of excellent recordings under Bernstein, for example. Plenty of Szell/Cleveland recordings have become classics, under Welser-Möst's tenure they've performed excellent Bruckner (how much more un-American can you get in Romantic music?) here and at that time I've read about them having one of the best brass sections in the world, from what I remember. The Philadelphia Orchestra with Ormandy also keep popping up in re-re-re-releases of classic recordings.

Gramophone lists Kubelik's Boston Symphony recording (from the late 60s or early 70s I believe) of Ma Vlast as the definitive version. I have both that and Kubelik's earlier 59 Vienna version; they're both very good and very different, and each orchestra has its strengths in different spots.

[artyjeffrey 20]

I think it's three reasons why we're generally weaker than Euro orchestras:

1.) The symphony/orchestra's origins come from you guys out there overseas(after we came here and were on the frontier, we whipped out banjos, guitars, and eventually created jazz)

2.) It is a reflection of our culture, what it values. We seem to only get into what we know is now "new," even though nothing is really new. Just look at our architecture... very little is truly old (especially out here in CA). Think about it: is a young child in America really going to want to be a flutist, or a drummer for a rock band? What is quicker, easier to learn?

3.) I'm not sure how it is in other countries, but here in America the general impression is that classical/symphonic concerts or operas are fare for the upper class. I don't feel this way, but those around me do. And of course, EVERYTHING here is pretty much class-driven. So, if you're not "uppity," then you don't witness performances-- and you subconsciously don't want to.

How is it in Europe? Is orchestral music viewed in that light, or is it more of a "people's music"? I'd like to know.

[Melange 446]

Why are American orchestras...so...., Lame...

Perhaps a more interesting question would be to ask why it seems that most of the replies in this thread assumed that the only alternative to the United States in a discussion, was "Europe". Do they know there are more than two regions in the world than these? (military misadventures aside, of course) with their own very highly skilled musicians and orchestras.

[Henry B 50]

The Japanese orchestras I've heard are very precise and technically capable.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Why are American orchestras...so...., Lame...

Perhaps a more interesting question would be to ask why it seems that most of the replies in this thread assumed that the only alternative to the United States in a discussion, was "Europe". Do they know there are more than two regions in the world than these? (military misadventures aside, of course) with their own very highly skilled musicians and orchestras.

It's rather assumed that we're discussing Western music in this thread.

I'm quite surprised the Berlin Phil hasn't been mentioned yet. And the Concertbegouw. Both top notch orchestras!

[David Coscina 4]

the National Symphony Orchestra recorded some great Goldsmith scores and they are out of Seattle.

Oh, and most of the Mahler recordings I have are by the Chicago Symphony Orchestra which is easily as good as the LSO.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I am assuming you mean the National Philharmonic Orchestta, which recorded Goldsmith scores like The Omen, Alien, First Blood Part II, Total Recall, Basic Instinct and many others?

If so, the NPO was an orchestra based in England.

[Josh500 1,615]

I think it's three reasons why we're generally weaker than Euro orchestras:

1.) The symphony/orchestra's origins come from you guys out there overseas(after we came here and were on the frontier, we whipped out banjos, guitars, and eventually created jazz)

2.) It is a reflection of our culture, what it values. We seem to only get into what we know is now "new," even though nothing is really new. Just look at our architecture... very little is truly old (especially out here in CA). Think about it: is a young child in America really going to want to be a flutist, or a drummer for a rock band? What is quicker, easier to learn.

3.) I'm not sure how it is in other countries, but here in America the general impression is that classical/symphonic concerts or operas are fare for the upper class. I don't feel this way, but those around me do. And of course, EVERYTHING here is pretty much class-driven. So, if you're not "uppity," then you don't witness performances-- and you subconsciously don't want to.

How is it in Europe? Is orchestral music viewed in that light, or is it more of a "people's music"? I'd like to know.

All I can deduce from your post is that you're not very familiar with Europe.

Couple of points:

1. Why do you automatically assume that American orchestras are generally inferior to European ones? That's not true.

2. You say that in America "very little is truly old." Of course everything in America (and by that I mean the USA) is newer. This country hasn't been around for very long, at least in comparison with Europe.

3. You say, "Think about it: is a young child in America really going to want to be a flutist, or a drummer for a rock band? What is quicker, easier to learn?" This is one of the dumbest statements I've ever read. So, according to your theory, if faced with a choice, American kids will automatically go for what's easier, quicker to learn?

4. You say, "Here in America the general impression is that classical/symphonic concerts or operas are fare for the upper class." That's pretty much the same in Europe, although perhaps not as much as in America.

5. You say, "And of course, EVERYTHING here is pretty much class-driven." I assume you're talking of California.

The Japanese orchestras I've heard are very precise and technically capable.

Yeah, they are!

[crocodile 8,033]

I am assuming you mean the National Philharmonic Orchestta, which recorded Goldsmith scores like The Omen, Alien, First Blood Part II, Total Recall, Basic Instinct and many others?

If so, the NPO was an orchestra based in England.

I probably like it even better than LSO. Their take on TESB is fantastic, as is Basic Instinct and many others.

I don't how about American orchestras being inferior, but I have a feeling we, as a film score fans, tend to think that, because most scores are being recorded by union musicians, which means there is a lot of shuffling going on from day to day. They don't have a opportunity to create a personality, like LSO or NPO. It has more to do with the system than musicians. There are, however, many great brass players in America. Probably better than anyplace else. Many European orchestras can't quite "hack" famous (or infamous, depending on how you look at it) Hollywood brass writing.

Karol

[Hitch 57]

Many European orchestras can't quite "hack" famous (or infamous, depending on how you look at it) Hollywood brass writing.

Karol

I bet to differ. The LSO's brass section is hard to beat...either live or recorded.

[Josh500 1,615]

Many European orchestras can't quite "hack" famous (or infamous, depending on how you look at it) Hollywood brass writing.

Karol

I bet to differ. The LSO's brass section is hard to beat...either live or recorded.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but that's (was) mostly due to Maurice Murphy.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Brass is more then just trumpets, josh!

[Josh500 1,615]

Brass is more then just trumpets, josh!

mostly

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No, not mostly. Murphy, as good as he was, was only one member of this orchestra's fantastic brass section.

[Josh500 1,615]

No, not mostly. Murphy, as good as he was, was only one member of this orchestra's fantastic brass section.

I said the LSO brass section sounded so great "mostly due to Maurice Murphy."

I know that the brass section doesn't consist mostly of Maurice Murphy, thank you!