Marion's Theme and Willie Scott's Theme . . .

[Josh500 1,620]

I watched ToD the other day, and it occurred to me just how much I love Willie Scott's Theme.

Marion's Theme is great, but Willie's theme has something that makes me wanna grin like a schoolboy every time I hear it. I think the main difference is that Willie's theme is just a little bit TOO sappy and TOO romantic and TOO sweet, almost cloyingly so . . . which Marion's Theme is not. But at the same time, it's perfectly fitting for the character of Willie. She may be loud and annoying as hell, but when she's in the mood for romance, nothing--or no one--can stop her. Also, there is something decidedly childish about that theme--the melody is going up and down at the beginning, like a little girl having a tantrum, almost. So, no, I don't think these themes are interchangeable. Marion's Theme seems to be more about Indy's love for Marion, rather than about Marion herself. But that's just my impression.

What does everybody think?

[Ollie 1,364]

I'd say that's a fair assessment.

[Henry B 51]

... Yeah, I actually agree.

[MrScratch 296]

Josh really just wanted to make a Marions Theme vs Willies Theme poll.

[Josh500 1,620]

Josh really just wanted to make a Marions Theme vs Willies Theme poll.

You caught me!

[FBC Director 10,764]

"Marion's Theme" is more mature. Willie's Theme is more playful and flirty.

[Josh500 1,620]

Hmmmm . . . I regret that there is no Elsa's Theme! How lovely would THAT have been?

[John Crichton 4]

Good choice by Williams, there's enough going on thematically in LC as it is.

[Docteur Qui 1,581]

Now that I think of it, irina's theme would fit perfectly for Elsa. Seductive, sexy and mysterious. despite her character being quite shallow.... well, so was Irina.

[Josh500 1,620]

Good choice by Williams, there's enough going on thematically in LC as it is.

Yeah right, as opposed to Raiders and Temple!

[Ollie 1,364]

There was no need for a love theme for Elsa. She wasn't a true love interest for Indy.

Had she been a heroine in the film she probably would have had one but since she's technically a villian I can see why she didn't get one.

[Jim 6,172]

grin like a schoolboy

Don't you do that 24/7 anyway?

I never did like Willie's theme that much, but it's perfect for the movie and the character, so I can't really criticise it I suppose. Marion's Theme is in a different league though.

[Henry B 51]

Good choice by Williams, there's enough going on thematically in LC as it is.

Yeah right, as opposed to Raiders and Temple!

This is kind of like asking, why doesn't Gandalf have a theme in Shore's Lord of the Rings? Or why doesn't Han Solo have a theme in Star Wars? It's hard to explain why, but they just didn't need themes.

[indy4 160]

She could have used a theme in LC. The movie is fine without it, but it still would have been nice.

[crocodile 9,518]

There's virtually no place for it.

Karol

[Adam S. 0]

There's the scene where they kiss in Venice which most composers would be tempted to score I would think. But I see it a bit like how the shark music doens't play when there's a fake shark in Jaws. JW doesn't want to mislead the audience and that's sort of the way he approached her character. The closest thing to giving her a musical identity is the look she gives Indy before he breaks through the wall in the catacombs. Its very brief but it seems to foreshawdow the fact that she can't be trusted and the music accomnpanies it accordingly.

I've always preferred Willie's theme. It feels to me like he wanted to give the theme a showtune (or showgirl I suppose) vibe.

- Adam

[Josh500 1,620]

There's the scene where they kiss in Venice which most composers would be tempted to score I would think. But I see it a bit like how the shark music doens't play when there's a fake shark in Jaws. JW doesn't want to mislead the audience and that's sort of the way he approached her character. The closest thing to giving her a musical identity is the look she gives Indy before he breaks through the wall in the catacombs. Its very brief but it seems to foreshawdow the fact that she can't be trusted and the music accomnpanies it accordingly.

- Adam

I've always loved the moment in the castle when Indy and his Dad are tied up and Elsa comes up to Indy, saying, "I can't forget . . . how wonderful it was."

The music was kind of menacing before, but when she gives him this look, the music immediately changes to seductive and romantic (I think a saxophone plays there as well)--this always makes me laugh! It's so sudden, but so perfect and brilliant! I still think Elsa deserved SOME kind of theme, if even the robbers and the Cross of Coronado have their own themes!

[Red 75]

if even the robbers and the Cross of Coronado have their own themes!

That's because all of the music for the beginning of TLC is self-contained, and never appears after that. It's like it's own miniature Indy score.

[Josh500 1,620]

if even the robbers and the Cross of Coronado have their own themes!

That's because all of the music for the beginning of TLC is self-contained, and never appears after that. It's like it's own miniature Indy score.

Hmmm, yeah, you're right! But that's all the more reason why Elsa should have had her own mini-theme . . . not that I'm complaining, it just would have been nice.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

The film didn't need a theme for Elsa by any means, but it wouldn't have been a detriment. Those were the days when Williams often wrote themes and motifs almost haphazardly, for things that really didn't need them (and the scores were all the better for it), like the Cross of Coronado, the ToD flood and Sankara Stones, etc.

[Mr. Breathmask 624]

It was also the time when he used to write setpieces. Sequences (often action scenes) that would have their own theme or motif. You'll find it all over his seventies and eighties scores, but it's pretty much gone from his writing now.

[indy4 160]

It was also the time when he used to write setpieces. Sequences (often action scenes) that would have their own theme or motif. You'll find it all over his seventies and eighties scores, but it's pretty much gone from his writing now.

They're in the SW prequels, Indy 4, CMIYC, The Lost World, Minority Report, HP, and more.

[Adam S. 0]

Yeah, I don't think there's a big change. One could more easily fault JW for not having a theme for Han Solo, afterall he's a much bigger character than Elsa. But the point of course is that it wasn't needed. Its more a function of how the movie is directed as far as I can tell. Cross of Coronado to take one of Ray's examples, , very much needed a theme, IMO, just because of the way it was highlighted in the backstory and the way the camera cuts away to show the cross in the action scene and so forth.

Taking the most recent action music in Indy4, Academe has a recurring motif that is only for that sepiece as does the Snake Pit. The Jungle Chase, despite being very unevenly directed, has it a bit in the second half of the cue in terms of the motif in the bass that drives the scene forward. Other action music is so brief that it wouldn't have made much sense to introduce a new melodic idea. And that's just his most recent movie.

Its also worth noting that Last Crusade is very rich with thematic and melodic ideas, probably more so than Raiders, a film that was during his so-called Golden Age Period, though I wouldn't say he got better in 1989. Again, it seems like more a reflection of the requirements of the films.

- Adam

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Cross of Coronado to take one of Ray's examples, , very much needed a theme, IMO, just because of the way it was highlighted in the backstory and the way the camera cuts away to show the cross in the action scene and so forth.

Agreed...I guess I meant that today he would more likely see less necessity for themes representing smaller elements of the story like that.

[Josh500 1,620]

The film didn't need a theme for Elsa by any means, but it wouldn't have been a detriment.

That's easy to say now. However, if JW HAD decided to write an Elsa Theme, no one would say today, "Oh that was so unnecessary."

Those were the days when Williams often wrote themes and motifs almost haphazardly, for things that really didn't need them (and the scores were all the better for it), like the Cross of Coronado, the ToD flood and Sankara Stones, etc.

Exactly. I'm not saying Elsa's Theme was necessary, but I think the score would have been all the better (slightly, not much).

I don't think there's a separate theme for the flood! By Sankara Stones, do you mean Mola Rum's Theme???

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

The flood just has a "fanfaric six-note motif" as described in John Takis' complete score analysis, and the Sankara Stones have a five-note theme used throughout the score.

[Josh500 1,620]

The flood just has a "fanfaric six-note motif" as described in John Takis' complete score analysis, and the Sankara Stones have a five-note theme used throughout the score.

Hmmm, I have to check that out!

Although . . . if a melody/motif appears only ONCE during the entire movie (like the flood "theme"), can it be legitimately called a theme?

[Adam S. 0]

I think its all kind of blurry. There's no clear lines on what is a theme or a motif. It seems to me there are times that he introduces melodic ideas for a particular sequence just to give the scene something he thinks it needs and wouldn't think to use it again. The flood sequence seems like one of those. Its a motif I suppose in the sesne that The Basket Game has a motif and Belly of the Steal Beast has a motif and so forth. But its not thematic really in that he wouldn't necessarily reference it if there was another flood (as there was actually in KotCS).

The Sankara Stones have something of a motif during the scene where Indy takes them and we get the big choir statement. But I don't remember any other moment that uses the same melodic idea. I also glanced through Takis' analysis and didn't see where he refences that Williams used it again. But maybe I'm forgetting something.

- Adam

[Josh500 1,620]

I think its all kind of blurry. There's no clear lines one what is a theme or a motif. It seems to me there are times that he introduces melodic ideas for a particular sequence just to give the scene something he thinks it needs and wouldn't think to use it again. The flood sequence seems like one of those. Its a motif I suppose in the sesne that The Basket Game has a motif and Belly of the Steal Beast has a motif and so forth. But its not thematic really in that he wouldn't necessarily reference it if there was another flood (as there was actually in KotCS).

The Sankara Stones have something of a motif during the scene where Indy takes them and we get the big choir statement. But I don't remember any other moment that uses the same melodic idea. I also glanced through Takis' analysis and didn't see where he refences that Williams used it again. But maybe I'm forgetting something.

- Adam

Yeah, "motif" is the correct term to use here, I think. It's just a musical idea repeated during those scenes . . .

Still, one might call them a mini-themes, I guess.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

The flood motif is very minor, I agree. But the Stones motif is played in at least one other scene, when Indy is telling the legend to Willie on the first night of their trek.

[Wojo 2,458]

This is kind of like asking, why doesn't Gandalf have a theme in Shore's Lord of the Rings? Or why doesn't Han Solo have a theme in Star Wars? It's hard to explain why, but they just didn't need themes.

Gandalf gets a theme when he's promoted to White status in The Two Towers, which IMHO isn't used nearly enough.

But you're right, Han Solo doesn't get a theme until he shares one with Leia in The Empire Strikes Back, and the score to Star Wars is still flawless without one, and Han Solo is still just as interesting a character without one.

In one sense, it would have been interesting if Elsa had received a theme somehow related to the Father/Son Theme from TLC, since her love story with Indy was one which was also shared by Henry Sr. I think though it would've just diluted the meaning of the theme, since the film was about father and son searching for the Grail together and finding each other, not about both sleeping with the hot blond Austrian chick.

[Adam S. 0]

The flood motif is very minor, I agree. But the Stones motif is played in at least one other scene, when Indy is telling the legend to Willie on the first night of their trek.

Ok, that's interesting. Thanks for pointing that out. I went back and watched that scene and indeed its the same motif. Somehow I never made the connection even though I've seen the movie way too many times.

- Adam

[Red 75]

As for the question at hand, I think that both Marion and Willie themes fit well with each other. Willie's is much more light hearted (dealing more with her personality) while Marion's is more passionate (reflecting her love for Indy).

[Koray Savas 2,259]

Fun fact: Josh500 has started 22 of 56 threads on this page.

[oierem 240]

The flood motif is very minor, I agree. But the Stones motif is played in at least one other scene, when Indy is telling the legend to Willie on the first night of their trek.

Ok, that's interesting. Thanks for pointing that out. I went back and watched that scene and indeed its the same motif. Somehow I never made the connection even though I've seen the movie way too many times.

- Adam

Actually the first appearence of the Shankara stones motif happens in the indian village, when Indy explains the appearence of the rock that has been stolen. It wasn't mentioned in Takis' analysis but it is there. So there are three appearences in total.

[Josh500 1,620]

Fun fact: Josh500 has started 22 of 56 threads on this page.

I'm the life and soul of this subforum!!!

Seriously, I think it's better for a forum when a lot is going on, always. That's a healthy sign!

[Elmo Lewis 7]

There was no need for a love theme for Elsa. She wasn't a true love interest for Indy.

That could be subjected to debate. Albeit poorly explained in the script, Indy acts like he really really cares for Elsa -- not because of the blatant flirting when they meet, but because of moments like their scenes together in castle (he acts very stupidly when he surrenders to the Nazis to save her) or in the destructing temple (he once again risks his own life to save her even though she's proven to be a cold-blooded villain), or even after that (Indy has found his faith and thus the Grail, and he's even been able to use its power to save his dying father's life... and yet all he seems to care about at the end is that Elsa has died, despite it was for her own greed and clear recklessness). It seems like he really felt something special for her, although we as the audience are left wondering... what the hell does he see in her?

[FBC Director 10,764]

It seems like he really felt something special for her, although we as the audience are left wondering... what the hell does he see in her?

Her blonde hair.

[Josh500 1,620]

Those of you who wonder what Indy saw in Elsa are either blind or gay.

But anyway, Indy seems to be instantly smitten with her. Right from the very beginning the two are flirting (he picks up a flower for her on the streets of Venice), they kiss and (presumably) get it on in the hotel room. Now, while she turns out to be a quasi-villain, it's obvious that she's not a villain on the same level as, say, Irina Spalko. She is a temptress, but she in turn gets tempted by the Holy Grail. And Indy, of course, gets tempted by both (and loses both). What he gains is his dad.

I think it's noteworthy that all 3 Indy girls have markedly different characters . . .

[Elmo Lewis 7]

Josh, that post didn't make any sense, you just described what we see on screen. Anyway, my point is, we're supposed to believe that Indy is some kind of womanizing adventurer, and his actions in Last Crusade clearly imply that he has made a special connection with Elsa (besides her hotness). The reason why is never explained.

[Josh500 1,620]

Josh, that post didn't make any sense, you just described what we see on screen. Anyway, my point is, we're supposed to believe that Indy is some kind of womanizing adventurer, and his actions in Last Crusade clearly imply that he has made a special connection with Elsa (besides her hotness). The reason why is never explained.

What reasons are you looking for, exactly?

He saw her, he felt instantly attracted to her: besides her hotness, they have clearly the same interest, as well. That's obvious from the get-go. As time passes, though, he realizes that she's got an edge to her, that she isn't easy, but he's still attracted to her. That's why they fight and make love. As more time passes, he finds out that she already slept with his dad and that her interest in the Holy Grail might be bigger than her interest in him. That's when Indy loses it (the book-burning scene), but he obviously cares enough for her still (and she for him) because they're after the same thing.

In the end, she is forced to decide between him and the Grail, and she makes the wrong choice . . .

[Mr. Breathmask 624]

Fun fact: Josh500 has started 22 of 56 threads on this page.

It is also entirely irrelevant.

Those of you who wonder what Indy saw in Elsa are either blind or gay.

Not sure what anyone's sexual preference has to do with any of this. You seem to like "accusing" people of being homosexual a lot. Is there anything you want to tell us?

But anyway, Indy seems to be instantly smitten with her. Right from the very beginning the two are flirting (he picks up a flower for her on the streets of Venice), they kiss and (presumably) get it on in the hotel room. Now, while she turns out to be a quasi-villain, it's obvious that she's not a villain on the same level as, say, Irina Spalko. She is a temptress, but she in turn gets tempted by the Holy Grail.

But still, she betrays him. And yet Indy seems to continue having feelings for her. And not just because they made nookie in Venice. There's something underneath what's being said in the Berlin scene for example, something deeper.

[Ollie 1,364]

I agree the script really doesn't define their relationship compared to the women in the first two films. While she is a villian she's not entirely evil, but she is greedy.

I always thought Indy cared for her the way any man would care for a woman in distress.

[Josh500 1,620]

Those of you who wonder what Indy saw in Elsa are either blind or gay.

Not sure what anyone's sexual preference has to do with any of this. You seem to like "accusing" people of being homosexual a lot. Is there anything you want to tell us?

Yeah, I'm bi.

But anyway, Indy seems to be instantly smitten with her. Right from the very beginning the two are flirting (he picks up a flower for her on the streets of Venice), they kiss and (presumably) get it on in the hotel room. Now, while she turns out to be a quasi-villain, it's obvious that she's not a villain on the same level as, say, Irina Spalko. She is a temptress, but she in turn gets tempted by the Holy Grail.

But still, she betrays him. And yet Indy seems to continue having feelings for her. And not just because they made nookie in Venice. There's something underneath what's being said in the Berlin scene for example, something deeper.

But that's not necessarily a bad thing. I like characters who are purposely kept ambiguous. Makes them more real, somehow.

[Docteur Qui 1,581]

Those of you who wonder what Indy saw in Elsa are either blind or gay.

Oh, the tired old stereotype that gays don't find women attractive. Welcome to the 21st century Josh. Few things to remember: we don't burn witches anymore and those big metal birds you see in the sky are called planes.

[Hlao-roo 390]

Taking the most recent action music in Indy4, Academe has a recurring motif that is only for that sepiece as does the Snake Pit. The Jungle Chase, despite being very unevenly directed, has it a bit in the second half of the cue in terms of the motif in the bass that drives the scene forward. Other action music is so brief that it wouldn't have made much sense to introduce a new melodic idea. And that's just his most recent movie.

Williams still writes defined melodic figures for individual sequences, but the overall more haphazard construction of his post-1993 action music tends to obscure them, and in general he seems less intent on structuring his action cues around these motives or putting them through sustained development. He is more likely to employ them as bookends, or shoehorn them betwixt passages that sound, sadly, shopworn and filmically fungible.

Exceptions to this trend include "Escape from Naboo" (from Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace, perhaps the only post-1997 action cue that approaches the fluidity and cohesiveness of classic set pieces like "TIE Fighter Attack" and "The Mine Car Chase"), the similarly brief but stellar "The Whomping Willow" (from Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban), and "The Arena" (from Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones, a variant of the distractingly derivative Trade Federation March). Less sterling examples include the still fairly patchy "The Flying Car" (from Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets) and "Quidditch, Third Year" (from Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban), which begins in fantastic fugal fashion before disintegrating all too quickly. "The Snake Pit" appears to be a deliberate nod to "The Basket Chase," but suffers, I think, by comparison.

[Adam S. 0]

There’s also something like Battle of the Heroes which is almost completely thematic. War of the Worlds has action music which is very structured quite often although not at all thematic. The Chess Match in Harry Potter is a unique action piece with its use of percussion. Taken all together and including your examples and one‘s we‘re leaving off, there’s a lot of variety depending on the type of scene. So I think that suggests that he is willing to go in a lot of directions depending on if the film provides something unique in terms of the subtext that music can fill in. But I see your point about the changes and I think there are probably several factors that contribute to it including evolution in his technique, the way films are edited, the way he tries to get heard through the sound effects (more high end trumpet punctuations), etc. But there’s a tremendous amount of musical complexity in these kinds of pieces that you’re complaining about though that’s probably small consolation. For me, this kind of music isn’t as immediately accessible but, at the same time, the quality of the writing is still so high that I can still enjoy it on a some level - particularly if I give it more time. But that’s just me.

- Adam