Interesting observations by FSM's Lukas Kendall

[TownerFan 4,991]

On the FSM Board a thread was recently started about the old SW Anthology boxset. Lukas Kendall (who did liner notes back then for that release) made a reply about people asking the possiblility of re-releasing SW and Indy scores. Here's what he said:

You are not going to get what you want for either franchise. Lucasfilm controls the rights and ransoms them to the highest bidder. They also defer to Williams, whose people run up big mixing bills and do not orient the releases to collectors' wishes (as happened on the recent Indy box). On top of that there are still elements problems with the original Trilogy due to the stuff having not been well archived at the time...there was a guy at the Star Wars Convention at the L.A. Convention Center a few years ago who was ransoming off original tape reels he had dug up from (LP remix engineer) John Neal's estate, including the original 2" 16-track of side four of the Star Wars LP! (Who knows where sides 1 through 3 went...the way this guy explained it, he got side 4 out of some garage...he did loan it to Lucasfilm at least to make a digital copy.) Finally, that 2CD Phantom Menace was something of a fiasco...Lucasfilm only did it because the tracks had gotten out there somehow (I forget how) and thought they were giving the collectors what they wanted by using the edited stems as conformed to the movie (with a million edits). They were quite taken aback by all the negative cricitism -- "what's the problem, it's exactly every note as heard in the film?" I remember explaining to one of the executives the subtleties involved and by the time I finished the attitude I heard was along the lines of "to hell with these people." Others know much more than I do but omerta prevails...such is the power of the Force. My real advice is to relax because after all we do have every note from the Trilogy on those 2CD editions...it's easy to overlook what a big deal that was...as well as significant Indy releases.

Lukas

I find it a frank and direct analysis about why it's so difficult to get these scores out in properly expanded fashion. However, maybe one day Lucasfilm will understand and will license all their music stuff to one of the film music specialty labels.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

They were quite taken aback by all the negative cricitism -- "what's the problem, it's exactly every note as heard in the film?" I remember explaining to one of the executives the subtleties involved and by the time I finished the attitude I heard was along the lines of "to hell with these people."

They sell a faulty product, so they blame the customers.

[Luke Skywalker 1,807]

However, maybe one day Lucasfilm will understand and will license all their music stuff to one of the film music specialty labels.

No need to do that... the rca special editions came close of being perfect.

Just involve some producer that knows what must be done (ie mattessino)

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

An FSM "Silver Box" for the Original Trilogy would be a dream, complete with alternates and even the "Ewok Celebration". The Prequel Trilogy would be the "Gold Box", including all music as it was originally intended, plus alternates.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,493]

They sell a faulty product, so they blame the customers.

The customer is always right.

The complete prequel scores are desired, but I'll admit that I'd probably listen to them non-stop for a few weeks and then grow tired of them...then go back to the far superior OT scores.

The SW SE soundtracks are far from perfect, in my opinion. The sheer amount of music and the mostly chronological placement is wonderful. I've listened to those things so many times. But among my issues with them are the weird sound problems. The Anthology just sounds better, for starters. Some tracks have me turning down the volume because of bad mixing of the cues. Many tracks are way too long. With the Anthology you can at least access certain cues isolated to their own tracks that are lost to ginormous extended tracks on the SE's. Time has also not been kind to the packaging. It's one of those crappy examples of non-jewel case packaging that doesn't last and doesn't protect the discs. Indy set has this problem (don't even get me started on the disc 5 cardboard thing), as does TPM UE, Jaws Anniversary and TLW. Meanwhile, all my jewel cases and contained discs are just fine.

But yeah, it sucks that releasing the scores to SW and Indy is so costly. Wait, what am I saying? Lucas is f'ing rich.

[King Mark 3,631]

just keep releasing games with unreleased music .We almost don't need an official expanded RotS anymore

[Quintus 5,399]

maybe one day Lucasfilm will understand and will license all their music stuff to one of the film music specialty labels.

What, you mean after hell has frozen over? Lucas will have to have been dead for a hundred years for that to happen.

[King Mark 3,631]

And my deep set pro-bootleg /grab anything you can attitude regarding film scores is not about to go away. Release the music I want after 20 years of waiting I'll be happy but still bitter at whoever was hoarding it in the first place.

[John Crichton 4]

They were quite taken aback by all the negative cricitism -- "what's the problem, it's exactly every note as heard in the film?" I remember explaining to one of the executives the subtleties involved and by the time I finished the attitude I heard was along the lines of "to hell with these people."

They sell a faulty product, so they blame the customers.

And don't bother to try to understand why the product was faulty in the first place.

[Andy 4,263]

I cannot understand the attitude Lucas marketing has towards its fans in terms of home video and soundtrack releases. Compare the Star Wars CD releases to the Shore Lord of the Rings Trilogy sets. Compare the Star Wars DVD releases to the Lord of the Rings extended DVDs. It really leaves you with the impression that they just really don't care.

[Luke Skywalker 1,807]

I cannot understand the attitude Lucas marketing has towards its fans in terms of home video and soundtrack releases. Compare the Star Wars CD releases to the Shore Lord of the Rings Trilogy sets. Compare the Star Wars DVD releases to the Lord of the Rings extended DVDs. It really leaves you with the impression that they just really don't care.

Add the constant bashing (deserved, but really neccesary?) and you have the formula to the reluctancy to please the hardcore fans (the casual fan does not bother that much...).

[King Mark 3,631]

I think getting the shaft in terms of media release by studios is unique to film score fans

[Luke Skywalker 1,807]

Still, we would have much more aotc and rots music than what we have now, if people would have not complained directly to lucasfilm about the TPM UE.

Regardless of the crap those CDs would be in music presentation.

[King Mark 3,631]

Well with a AotC UE we could still edit something ourselves that would have a lot more music than the OST or music from games we have now

and a RotS UE would actually have less microedits than the cues on the OST ,if you remove the tracked music from previous movies

[Richard Penna 3,770]

Confirms what I already thought about Lucas - just cares about money, and really doesn't give a shit about his fans.

I remember explaining to one of the executives the subtleties involved and by the time I finished the attitude I heard was along the lines of "to hell with these people."

There is such a world of difference between the business ethics of Lucasfilm and the speciality labels, and the sad thing is, who's going to lose more if an album sells poorly?

Although it is also unfortunate that it also concerns a composer who never seems to want any of his music released.

I cannot understand the attitude Lucas marketing has towards its fans in terms of home video and soundtrack releases. Compare the Star Wars CD releases to the Shore Lord of the Rings Trilogy sets. Compare the Star Wars DVD releases to the Lord of the Rings extended DVDs. It really leaves you with the impression that they just really don't care.

Add the constant bashing (deserved, but really neccesary?) and you have the formula to the reluctancy to please the hardcore fans (the casual fan does not bother that much...).

If Lucasfilm did something like a limited release of the intended prequels, say 3000 units, I think that would sell and they'd make a ton of money.

Go on Lucas, give me 3 good reasons why not. Twat.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

They sell a faulty product, so they blame the customers.

The customer is always right.

The complete prequel scores are desired, but I'll admit that I'd probably listen to them non-stop for a few weeks and then grow tired of them...then go back to the far superior OT scores.

The SW SE soundtracks are far from perfect, in my opinion. The sheer amount of music and the mostly chronological placement is wonderful. I've listened to those things so many times. But among my issues with them are the weird sound problems. The Anthology just sounds better, for starters. Some tracks have me turning down the volume because of bad mixing of the cues. Many tracks are way too long. With the Anthology you can at least access certain cues isolated to their own tracks that are lost to ginormous extended tracks on the SE's. Time has also not been kind to the packaging. It's one of those crappy examples of non-jewel case packaging that doesn't last and doesn't protect the discs. Indy set has this problem (don't even get me started on the disc 5 cardboard thing), as does TPM UE, Jaws Anniversary and TLW. Meanwhile, all my jewel cases and contained discs are just fine.

But yeah, it sucks that releasing the scores to SW and Indy is so costly. Wait, what am I saying? Lucas is f'ing rich.

They did do jewel case versions of the SEs, it's what I have.

I appreciate the Anthology for what it was, but I think the SEs are far superior, certain aspects of ROTJ aside. But I've accepted that I'll never really get what I want unless I (or someone else) try to make it myself.

[Trent B 337]

I'm sure when ever the Star Wars movies (the Saga) set are released on Blu-Ray we'll get the complete intended scores for The Phantom Menace through Revenge Of The Sith.

[Richard Penna 3,770]

Just keep thinking that Trent.

[A24 4,367]

My god, I want to hear those original master tapes from the double LP.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I would love to see it re-released on SA-CD at some point. Yes it's not complete, but it flows rather beautifully.

[TownerFan 4,991]

I'm sure when ever the Star Wars movies (the Saga) set are released on Blu-Ray we'll get the complete intended scores for The Phantom Menace through Revenge Of The Sith.

According to The Digital Bits, there are strong possibilities that the Star Wars films will be released on Blu-Ray in 2011:

Based on information gathered from scores of industry sources over the last few months, we have strong reason to believe that Lucasfilm and Paramount are planning to bow the classic Indiana Jones Trilogy on Blu-ray in 2010, followed by at least some or all of the Star Wars films in 2011 (either the classic or prequel trilogies... or possibly even the long-awaited complete saga box set).

[Quintus 5,399]

Go on Lucas, give me 3 good reasons why not. Twat.

[Richard Penna 3,770]

I'm sure when ever the Star Wars movies (the Saga) set are released on Blu-Ray we'll get the complete intended scores for The Phantom Menace through Revenge Of The Sith.

According to The Digital Bits, there are strong possibilities that the Star Wars films will be released on Blu-Ray in 2011:

His reputation is based upon technology, and the release of his baby is only a 'strong possibility'?

Very strange person.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I'm sure when ever the Star Wars movies (the Saga) set are released on Blu-Ray we'll get the complete intended scores for The Phantom Menace through Revenge Of The Sith.

According to The Digital Bits, there are strong possibilities that the Star Wars films will be released on Blu-Ray in 2011:

His reputation is based upon technology, and the release of his baby is only a 'strong possibility'?

Very strange person.

The release of it is inevitable, it's just the date of its release that's the strong possibility.

[Trent B 337]

Everyone mentions about the backlash regarding the so called Ultimate Edition for The Phantom Menace. Frankly we had every right to be pissed about that. It was advertised as having every note for the film that Williams composed for which was completely false advertisement. If it truly had every note composed for the film it would have had all the unused music IE: Star Wars Original Trilogy S.E. discs, not a damn chopped up isolated score.

Lucasfilm needs to go out on places like FSM and here and really read that we, film score fans do want all the music as originally intended for. They would make money off the complete original intended Prequel scores, if they would just allow one of the labels to properly release them. Since they wouldn't have to worry about reuse fees, they could make it a non limited edition.

[Diego 21]

The thing is Lucasfilm is getting loads of money selling toys, clothes, videogames and the like, revenue from the score would probably be much lower than any of that stuff. From what I see, and I can only talk about Mexico, the scores as released seem to move rather well, better than most other scores, so they probably feel no need to release them, even more so now that they have the experience that a second release with more music doesn't sell well and didn't please the fans.

If we got expanded Indy scores, which are more expensive due to re-issues fees and have a smaller fan base (Indy vs SW that is), I'm sure we'll get the prequel scores, you may want to seat though, it's probably going to be a long wait. I don't think we'll get re-mastered or improved OT scores though, Lucasfilm is cheap and lazy, if they already have them from the SE release they won't bother to do them again (just look at the awful SW DVD releases)

[Wojo 2,453]

To some well-paid people in executive positions at big companies, they may not see what all the fuss is about. They don't have the passion or even interest in film scores to hear or want to know the difference between "every note composed for the film" and a simple translation of the isolated score to a film. They interpret a movie score to be just background noise, and probably think we're in the same group as people who like to listen to sound effects from a movie. (cough cough Generations) As long as people like that are in charge, some film soundtracks are an endangered species.

[A24 4,367]

I'm sure when ever the Star Wars movies (the Saga) set are released on Blu-Ray we'll get the complete intended scores for The Phantom Menace through Revenge Of The Sith.

According to The Digital Bits, there are strong possibilities that the Star Wars films will be released on Blu-Ray in 2011:

His reputation is based upon technology, and the release of his baby is only a 'strong possibility'?

Very strange person.

If Blu-ray was a massive hit today, Lucas would've released them already. It's more interesting to put them on the market if everyone has a Blu-ray player. Lucas always thinks in dollars.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Anyone who has a PS3 has a Blu-ray player. That's several million, not including people who just own the player separately. How would SW on Blu not be a good investment?

[A24 4,367]

Anyone who has a PS3 has a Blu-ray player. That's several million, not including people who just own the player separately. How would SW on Blu not be a good investment?

Nobody said it's not a good investment but Blu-ray is not the hit you think it is. It's like with the DVD release at the time, Lucas will only release them when literally everyone buys Blu-ray. People are not hungry enough for it yet. Disney also complains that the Blu-ray releases of their older titles aren't selling the way they had hoped.

Alex

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Disney also complains that the Blu-ray releases of their older titles aren't selling the way they had hoped.

Alex

What's your source for this?

[A24 4,367]

First you have to tell me why you want it.

[Ollie 1,069]

Nice to see Lukas confirm what many of us already suspected / knew.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

First you have to tell me why you want it.

I'd just like to see something you say backed it up with actual hard facts instead of your usual snooty commentary.

[Ollie 1,069]

Funny, experts all calling for 2010 to be the year that many requested titles start appearing on Blu-Ray. Some are even calling for the demise of regular DVDs.

But what do they know.

[Diego 21]

I wouldn't get too excited, if SW is released on Blu-ray it'll be the DVD versions, probably with some more changes, just so Lucas "doesn't abandon his movies".

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Who said 2010 wasn't the year for optimism.

[Ollie 1,069]

Oh I'm not worried, I haven't converted to Blu-Ray. And unless it's the original versions I'm not even gonna bother buying anymore Lucasfilm related films.

[TheDarkOrb 0]

WOW some of you people on this forum are so idiotic. You need to realize that these products are marketed to the average consumer, who will not care if a few tracks are left out. We where lucky we got a bonus disc in the Indy box with a few rare tracks. For me, the 97 special edition of the SW OT soundtracks are just fine. Most people don't give a shit about what isn't in the film (alternates/variations). As far as sound quality, have never heard any sound problems and I have good earphones. Realize these where mastered in 97. And can we really expect special editions like these to just pop up out of the blue? No. They will wait until there is a big event when interest is up. The new Indy OSTs where released when the new film came out, the special editions of the SW OT when the films where re-released and so on.

Confirms what I already thought about Lucas - just cares about money, and really doesn't give a shit about his fans.

He doesn't make films for you.

Although it is also unfortunate that it also concerns a composer who never seems to want any of his music released.

The music is composed for the film, not an album release.

Releasing soundtrack albums is a gamble nowadays, especially when you spending even more money are remastering/paying the people to remaster them. CD sales are declining, especially soundtrack releases.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,493]

All the Indy soundtracks, popular movies and popular scores, were out of print by the time KOTCS came out. I think regardless of whether that dreck had been released, they would have been put back into circulation at some point. The SW Anthology wasn't released to any kind of major tie-in. Neither was complete Superman. E.T. was re-released on VHS with some interviews when the actual film score was released, but big deal. I know there are countless other examples. You don't have to wait for some kind of "event" for a soundtrack to be released. Labels like Intrada do a better job with scores and rarely are the releases ever tied into anything. Frankly it's a shame that the complete recordings to the Indiana Jones movies, for examples, remain unreleased.

[Datameister 2,094]

WOW some of you people on this forum are so idiotic.

You certainly know how to butter a guy up!

You need to realize that these products are marketed to the average consumer, who will not care if a few tracks are left out....Most people don't give a shit about what isn't in the film (alternates/variations).

In other words, if a score receives a normal release with the option of downloading the remaining cues for a small additional fee, the "average consumer" will decide not to buy the album at all? You'll have to explain that one to me.

For me, the 97 special edition of the SW OT soundtracks are just fine....As far as sound quality, have never heard any sound problems and I have good earphones.

I'm happy for you that you are less perceptive than some! Ignorance truly is bliss - and I say that without a hint of sarcasm. Sometimes I wish I could be less aware of the faults in certain creative products.

Realize these where mastered in 97.

And yet there are earlier releases that sound better.

[MissPadmé 17]

Lukas said Lucasfilm offers the rights to the highest bidder... wait.. why can't we all just put all our coins in one pot and actually buy them? I am sure we could afford one or two seconds of mastertapetape hiss...

[Richard Penna 3,770]

The music is composed for the film, not an album release.

Releasing soundtrack albums is a gamble nowadays, especially when you spending even more money are remastering/paying the people to remaster them. CD sales are declining, especially soundtrack releases.

Yes, the music is written for the film, but most other composers not only manage to make a decent hour of listening, but also work actively with the labels when it comes to releasing older stuff. Williams doesn't seem interested in releasing older material, and I think most around here agree that his albums leave much desired.

And you're right, the average person on the street doesn't know or care that the prequels are missing tons of music - that's not the market I'm talking about. Intrada, Varese etc have said themselves that they're marketing towards the 5000 or so score fans, and many of their albums are clearly constructed for the collector (alternates, 20 second cues etc). My beef with Lucas is simply that he's not considering or just doesn't care about this market segment, for either franchise.

We where lucky we got a bonus disc in the Indy box with a few rare tracks.

This is a 30 year old franchise - if this film series were in any other hands (and probably any other composer), I bet you that we'd be looking at complete 2-CD scores from Intrada around now.

Look, I understand the arguments that scores don't sell well and we should be appreciative of everything we've got, but if you're restoring 30 year old scores from tapes, why, why, why, why, why only release 2/3 of the music you rescue?

And I've never liked the 'highest bidder' crap. Yes, businesses have to run, but there's more to life than making money.

[TheDarkOrb 0]

You don't have to wait for some kind of "event" for a soundtrack to be released. Labels like Intrada do a better job with scores and rarely are the releases ever tied into anything. Frankly it's a shame that the complete recordings to the Indiana Jones movies, for examples, remain unreleased.

I'm not talking about Intrada or FSM because they market their releases to the collectors. Your point: Obviously, but typically some of these companies seem to wait until something happens concerning OST releases. Sony seems to want casual consumers. If they where to release the complete collection of the Prequel trilogy tomorrow, only us collectors would come running. They want casual consumers to buy too. But yes, it is a shame, but only for those who care about the odd track that was left out. Of those people, there are not many of us when compared to the market out there.

You certainly know how to butter a guy up!

In no way am I defending studio's actions, but you need to get inside studio execs heads. To them, it's about making a profit from as many groups as possible.

In other words, if a score receives a normal release with the option of downloading the remaining cues for a small additional fee, the "average consumer" will decide not to buy the album at all? You'll have to explain that one to me.

I just said most don't care about unreleased, expanded, extended, alternate, complete, tracks. A single disc release seems to be a safer product to them over releasing twice as much through a double disc release. Now according to your statement, yes they still would, but most wouldn't care about going out of their way to get bonus tracks. Besides, I've only seen one soundtrack that has done that and that was the Casino Royale OST.

But I do like your idea of releasing complete scores through internet. This is how I can see complete versions of the Star Ware OSTs coming out of.

I'm happy for you that you are less perceptive than some! Ignorance truly is bliss - and I say that without a hint of sarcasm. Sometimes I wish I could be less aware of the faults in certain creative products.

I said it was fine, as in listenable. Sure they could use another remaster, but until then, they're fine.

[Romão 2,276]

[i think most around here agree that his albums leave much desired.

I certainly don't, and it irks me to see this often refered so often as being consensual. IMHO, JW creates wonderful listening experiences with his albums. I can't think of a single example where this wasn't the case.

[Datameister 2,094]

He does indeed create wonderful listening experiences with most of his albums. But he also leaves a lot of wonderful experiences off of them.

[TheDarkOrb 0]

The original Jaws 2 and the Jurassic Park ones sound nice in terms of an album experience. Never had an issue with those.

[Richard Penna 3,770]

Sony seems to want casual consumers. If they where to release the complete collection of the Prequel trilogy tomorrow, only us collectors would come running. They want casual consumers to buy too.

But... why?

You can't market the same product in the same package to two very different market segments and expect to please both.

[Datameister 2,094]

I haven't listened to Jaws 2, but I agree that Jurassic Park is a nice listening experience. You know what else is nice, though? Listening to the ten unreleased cues, all of which easily could have fit onto the same disc, especially if part of the end credits and "The Dinosaurs" hadn't been included on the album twice. They're not even different takes - just the exact same recording pressed onto the CD twice for the sake of the "experience." That's frustrating.

[TheDarkOrb 0]

Because they are money hungry and want it from everyone.

They're not even different takes - just the exact same recording pressed onto the CD twice for the sake of the "experience." That's frustrating.

I never did understand the decision making on that. I even had deleted one of them off my playlist at one point.