Finlandia thread - the music of Jean Sibelius

Incanus · January 19, 2006

Few people suggested this thread so here goes.

Do you know the composer Jean Sibelius? He is perhaps the biggest name in the orchestral music that Finland has ever produced (thusfar that is). He was an enigmatic artist and interesting figure in the world of music. His music is important for us Finns in large part because Sibelius was so good in articulating Finnish culture and history through music. But still there is something more in his music than just patriotic pride and fervor. His compositional voice is truly unique and strong and his works are varied from symphonies to vocal music to theater music. And most of all he had that Finnish sound I have come to know and love.

So here you can post your thoughts and musings on Sibelius and his music.

Amoung his greatest works I count Finlandia, almost an alternate Finnish national anthem, his symphonies, violin concerto and his large collection of Kalevala music which is based on Finnish national epic. Of course his body of work is quite extensive so I am constantly exploring new works. He is definitely amoung my favorite orchestral composers.

Hitch · January 19, 2006

I love Finlandia...the Swedish National Anthem.

Incanus · January 19, 2006

I love Finlandia...the Swedish National Anthem.

LOL

Oh Hitch you are such a kidder!

Hitch · January 19, 2006

You haven't heard Finlandia until you have heard Herrmann conduct it in 3/4 time.

hornist · January 19, 2006

Great symphonies.I would mention especially nr.6(not as famous as second an fifht)

Stringmusic in the beginning of the first movement is so beautiful and last movement is also great.

Not so well known is also King Christian(music for the stage).Very charming music.

Mr. Breathmask · January 19, 2006

I don't think I've heard anything of his apart from the piece used in Die Hard 2.

Also, until recently, I only knew Sibelius as a music notation program.

- Marc, shamelessly ignorant in some areas.

A24 · January 19, 2006

I've got his Violin Concerto.

Incanus · January 19, 2006

I find Sibelius' Violin Concerto to be mesmerising. The First movement's theme is amazing. So haunting and lyrical. And the whole piece showcases violin's capabilities in a great way. The performance by Lahti Symphony Orchestra conducted by Osmo Vänskä and violin solos by Leonidas Kavakos is by far the best version I have heard. The disc contains the original version and the revised final version. It is interesting to hear how Sibelius cut some of the virtuosic solo parts but the final version is more refined IMO.

Marian Schedenig · January 19, 2006

The opening notes of the violin concerto briefly appear in ESB. :joy: Also, Herrmann must have been a Sibelius fan... not only did he record some Sibelius works, the swamp music from Psycho is very reminiscent of a Sibelius work (I think it was Pelleas and Melisande?).

Finlandia will always remain among my favourite pieces of music, but there's so much more (and let's not forget he stopped composing after about two thirds of his life). Scenes historiques No. 1 is wonderful (both this and Finlandia originate in something called Press Celebrations Music), also Karelia (both the suite and the full thing), the symphonies, King Christian II (one of my favourites), the stunning Kullervo (based on the same Kalevala poem that inspired much of Tolkien's Turin story), Oceanides, Pohjola's Daughter,.. I'm also fond of Oma maa and Tulen synty.

This is absolutely essential for everyone remotely interested in Sibelius (and should be available much cheaper... I think mine was about 25 or 30 euros, a few years ago)- unless perhaps if you already have everything on it.

Any important works I left out? Anything I should discover? Any more choral stuff?

Marian - Sibelius fan.

Jim Ware · January 19, 2006

Fans of Kullervo may be interested in this. The LSO Live recordings of Symphonies 3, 5, 6 and 7 aren't bad either.

QMM · January 19, 2006

I've only got his 2nd symphony cd, good stuff though

Incanus · January 19, 2006

The 2nd Symphony is my absolute favorite. It is the second of his patriotic and national romatic Symphonies along with the 1st. The Finale is fantastic.

You have better knowledge of Sibelius than me Marian I should listen to more of his music. I should start a project of systematically going through his works. I mean to start tomorrow.

And BTW that list of yours covers many of the Sibelius' greatest works.

Marian Schedenig · January 19, 2006

Well, it's mostly from that Berglund set (did I say it is a must have?), I'm beginning to branch out from there. My first Sibelius CD was the DG Originals album conducted by Rosbaud (excellent but mono), then the Ashkenazy Double Deccas (all symphonies plus Finlandia and the Karelia Suite and one or two other tone poems), but from all of these, I only had a few favourites. What really opened my eyes was the Berglund set (did I say it is a must have?), but I'm sure there must be more. The CD I got for Christmas (complete Karelia and Press Celebrations Music) shows that. Karelia had to be partially reconstructed as Sibelius tore apart some pages from the score. It ends with an arrangement of the Finnish anthem for full choir and orchestra by Sibelius - the official anthem that is, not Finlandia, which ends (in its original version called Finland awakes - pretty much the same thing, but with a goofy bombast ending) the Press Celebrations Music.

Marian - suspecting that, like Karelia, there must be more lengthy Sibelius works behind those well-known suites.

Incanus · January 19, 2006

I own a CD with Tampere Philharmonics playing the Karelia music and the Press Celebratios Music. There the music is reconstructed and it is interesting to hear and see from what Sibelius condensed the Karelia suite. Maamme, Our Land, the Finnish national anthem arrangement is excellent.

That ending of the original version of Finlandia (Finland Awakes) is pretty ridiculous. It represents a locomotive as an ending to the Tableaux 6 and I am glad Sibelius revised the piece.

And as the Berglund (I got to see him conduct the Bedrich Smetana's Ma Vlast a while ago) set seems to be so great I will seek it out. :mrgreen:

hornist · January 19, 2006

The opening notes of the violin concerto briefly appear in ESB. Also, Herrmann must have been a Sibelius fan... not only did he record some Sibelius works, the swamp music from Psycho is very reminiscent of a Sibelius work (I think it was Pelleas and Melisande?).
Finlandia will always remain among my favourite pieces of music, but there's so much more (and let's not forget he stopped composing after about two thirds of his life). Scenes historiques No. 1 is wonderful (both this and Finlandia originate in something called Press Celebrations Music), also Karelia (both the suite and the full thing), the symphonies, King Christian II (one of my favourites), the stunning Kullervo (based on the same Kalevala poem that inspired much of Tolkien's Turin story), Oceanides, Pohjola's Daughter,.. I'm also fond of Oma maa and Tulen synty.
This is absolutely essential for everyone remotely interested in Sibelius (and should be available much cheaper... I think mine was about 25 or 30 euros, a few years ago)- unless perhaps if you already have everything on it.
Any important works I left out? Anything I should discover? Any more choral stuff?
Marian - Sibelius fan.

Yes, City in the Clouds from ESB reminds the beginning of the concerto.

And 7 Years in Tibet,first track quite similar violin passage than in First symphony.

What I didn't see in your list is: tonepoem Satu(in English maybe Saga?),Valse triste and

Swan of Tuonela(this migth include in some serie,scenes historiques perhaps)

Great english horn solo!

How come you are Sibelius fan,while you come from Austria? It's not very strong

area of Sibelius fans(thoug he studied in Wien...)? I mean the whole middle- Europe.

Trough the history in England and in the Us (later also Japan) the reception of his music has been

better...

Marian Schedenig · January 19, 2006

I own a CD with Tampere Philharmonics playing the Karelia music and the Press Celebratios Music.

That's the one I have. There's another recording of Karelia available, but I haven't heard that.

Yes, City in the Clouds from ESB reminds the beginning of the concerto.

The first time I heard the violin concerto, I had those opening notes stuck in my head for weeks until I figured out where I'd heard them before.

What I didn't see in your list is: tonepoem Satu(in English maybe Saga?),

There's a nice piece called En saga... is that the one you're referring to?

Valse triste and Swan of Tuonela(this migth include in some serie,scenes historiques perhaps)

Also nice, but not quite favourite of mine. They're from the stage music for Kuolema, and apparently there's a longer suite for that as well (and perhaps the full thing, too?)

How come you are Sibelius fan,while you come from Austria? It's not very strong
area of Sibelius fans(thoug he studied in Wien...)? I mean the whole middle- Europe.

I don't know... How can you not be, once you've heard Finlandia? In any case, Karajan recorded lots of Sibelius as well, so I'm not the only Austrian who likes him, though the Karajan Sibelius recordings I've heard aren't among my favourites.

Marian - :mrgreen:

Incanus · January 19, 2006

Also nice, but not quite favourite of mine. They're from the stage music for Kuolema, and apparently there's a longer suite for that as well (and perhaps the full thing, too?)
Marian -

Swan of Tuonela is from Lemminkäinen suite and Valse triste is from the play Kuolema (Death). And if I recall correctly Osmo Vänskä and Lahti Symphony Orchestra have recorded the whole score for the play.

hornist · January 19, 2006

Is that Tampere philharmonic recording good?

...and,please,don't answer no(because I'm playing in it)... :mrgreen:

Mr. Breathmask · January 19, 2006

It's balls!

- Marc, who hasn't heard it. :mrgreen:

Incanus · January 19, 2006

Is that Tampere philharmonic recording good?
...and,please,don't answer no(because I'm playing in it)...

I think it is great. I especially like the brass section on the recording.

hornist · January 19, 2006

Is that Tampere philharmonic recording good?
...and,please,don't answer no(because I'm playing in it)...
I think it is great. I especially like the brass section on the recording.

Thank You for the politeness

....and Mr.Breathmask: If you dont't know Sibelius music ,and you like movie music,you

should try his second symphony....

Marian Schedenig · January 19, 2006

Swan of Tuonela is from Lemminkäinen suite and Valse triste is from the play Kuolema (Death). And if I recall correctly Osmo Vänskä and Lahti Symphony Orchestra have recorded the whole score for the play.

Ah, got them mixed up. Scene of Cranes is from Kuolema. I find full play scores interesting. The full Peer Gynt has lots of great stuff that's not in the suites. I'll also have to check out Nielsen's full Aladdin score.

Listening to Finlandia and the Karelia Suite should be a good introduction for quick starters. Anyone intrigued by them should take the plunge and get the Berglund set (I think I'm repeating myself here).

About the Tampere recording: I don't know the other recording of Karelia, but I enjoy this one very much. :mrgreen:

Marian - who didn't know hornist played in it.

John Takis · January 20, 2006

Sibleius is a fairly mediocre figure in the pantheon of Great Composers. That said, when he's good, he's very VERY good. I love "Finlandia" and "The Swan of Tuonela", in particular, but I enjoy many of the other pieces that have been mentioned here. I'm particularly keen to obtain a copy of the CD that includes "The Origin of Fire" and "Song of the Athenians", neither of which I have actually heard, but the descriptions interest me. "Song of the Athenians" was reworked for the Olympic Games (I have become something of a collector of Olympics-themed music), and the following description of "The Origin of Fire" interests me greatly:

Tulen synty, op.32 (1902, rev.1910) depicts "The Origin of Fire" as it is written in the Finnish epic, The Kalevala. The 10-minute work begins in darkness, portraying the absence of the sun, moon and fire, which have been stolen by the Mistress of Pohjola. The baritone soloist laments in gloom over a field of Sibelian wind chords and string ostinati, basses rumbling like distant rolling clouds.
All is not lost - having described the concerns of Ukko, Chief of the Gods, the choir takes over to sing of his (Ukko's) striking light in the air with his blazing sword to begin the restoration. As is strangely common in the Kalevala, there are scenes and imagery of homely activity despite the epic mythological scale of the poetry and plot. Ukko asks the Maiden of the Air to rock the spark of fire in a golden cradle "o a new moon /And a new sun could be made". But she is careless and drops it from heaven.
In a sense, The Origin of Fire is like a slowly growing crescendo, moving from darkness to light. With Sibelius' famed ability for organic growth, this is just the kind of thing he does well. As the choir sings of the Maiden's carelessness, the music becomes more and more expectant. Seamlessly, the key shifts into the major, and choir, majestically accompanied, sings out broadly:
The sky was ripped apart,
The air was filled with windows,
Burst apart by sparks of fire,
As the red drop swiftly fell,
And a gap shone out from heaven.
As it dropped through the clouds,
Dropped through nine heavens,
Through six spangled vaults,
Through six spangled vaults,
Through nine heavens

Anyone here who could shed some light on either of these two pieces would have my gratitude.

P.S. The version of "Finlandia" on the "Die Hard 2" album is TERRIBLE! (The interpretation, not the recording -- which isn't great.) Completely limp, IMHO.

Salacius · January 20, 2006

I don't think I've heard anything of his apart from the piece used in Die Hard 2.
Also, until recently, I only knew Sibelius as a music notation program.
- Marc, shamelessly ignorant in some areas.

He, he

I was going to joke about him being a wicked programmer before your post

I don't pretend to know too much about classical composers,

My favourite are mostly Russians and other that that I like a few tracks from Wagner, Verdi, Beethoven, Holst ( :thumbup: ) and Debussy.

Unfortunately haven't heard anything from Sibelius.

MSM · January 20, 2006

I played Finlandia with my orchestra, is a great piece. Also I like Karelia Suite very much. The violin concerto I play myself, but I only like the third movement, the first and second movement aren't that great. The whole piece is written very violistically though, which makes it possible to be played relatively easily.

Overall I think Sibelius adds a nice scandinavian sound to the classical repertoire but especially his instrumentation suffers from not being that versatile.

#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal · January 20, 2006

P.S. The version of "Finlandia" on the "Die Hard 2" album is TERRIBLE! (The interpretation, not the recording -- which isn't great.) Completely limp, IMHO.

Why not keep an open mind instead of judging everything that is slightly different.

Marian Schedenig · January 21, 2006

"The Origin of Fire"

Tulen synty is included on the Berglund set, and I cited it as one of my favourites above. Admittedly, I couldn't even describe it yet (there's so much great stuff on this set, I sometimes forget to tell them apart).

"Song of the Athenians" was reworked for the Olympic Games (I have become something of a collector of Olympics-themed music)

I've never heard of this, but it certainly sounds interesting. 8O

With Sibelius' famed ability for organic growth, this is just the kind of thing he does well.

Which brings me back to the previous question about why I am a Sibelius fan. As a major fan of Bruckner, the "ability for organic growth" is of course appealing.

P.S. The version of "Finlandia" on the "Die Hard 2" album is TERRIBLE! (The interpretation, not the recording -- which isn't great.) Completely limp, IMHO.

I totally agree. It's amazing how such an energetic piece can be played so lamely.

Which brings me to the following question: What are the best Finlandia recordings? Of those I know, the Ashkenazy is very good and I particluarly like the Rosbaud (which I rarely play since it's in mono) and Berglund. I remember having an MP3 years ago which I then thought must be the definitive recording - unfortunately, I can't find that file anymore, and I never figured out who the performers were.

Marian - who needs more Finlandias.

:mrgreen: Deep Blue (George Fenton)

John Takis · January 23, 2006

P.S. The version of "Finlandia" on the "Die Hard 2" album is TERRIBLE! (The interpretation, not the recording -- which isn't great.) Completely limp, IMHO.
Why not keep an open mind instead of judging everything that is slightly different.

You may love this version. I think it sucks. It's not a question of being "different", it's a question of being "bad". Intelligent people are able to disagree. Please don't insult me by implying that I can't handle slight differences between various performances of a work just because I happen to disagree with you on this one.

I totally agree. It's amazing how such an energetic piece can be played so lamely.
Which brings me to the following question: What are the best Finlandia recordings? Of those I know, the Ashkenazy is very good and I particluarly like the Rosbaud (which I rarely play since it's in mono) and Berglund. I remember having an MP3 years ago which I then thought must be the definitive recording - unfortunately, I can't find that file anymore, and I never figured out who the performers were.
Marian - who needs more Finlandias.

I have the Ashkenazy, which is indeed very good, but my recording of choice (along with Valse Triste and Swan of Tuonela) is Eugene Ormandy with the Philadelphia Orchestra (as seen here). Ormandy just nails the tempos and intensity in this recording. I've yet to hear a version I prefer.

BTW, the now out-of-print "Fantasia Anthology" DVD box set is worth having for a Sibelius fan (worth having in general, but that's another story...) as one of the "reconstructions" of unproduced segments is artwork set to "Swan of Tuonela".

Marian Schedenig · January 23, 2006

You may love this version. I think it sucks. It's not a question of being "different", it's a question of being "bad".

Agreed. It's "different" in a similar way as Richard Hayman's Williams recordings are different. Only even worse.

I have the Ashkenazy, which is indeed very good, but my recording of choice (along with Valse Triste and Swan of Tuonela) is Eugene Ormandy with the Philadelphia Orchestra (as seen here). Ormandy just nails the tempos and intensity in this recording. I've yet to hear a version I prefer.

Thanks, I'll keep an eye open for that. I haven't heard the first two Griegs on it, so it should be interesting.

BTW, the now out-of-print "Fantasia Anthology" DVD box set is worth having for a Sibelius fan (worth having in general, but that's another story...) as one of the "reconstructions" of unproduced segments is artwork set to "Swan of Tuonela".

I still haven't seen Fantasia and already the DVDs are going out of print?

Marian - :eek:

Memoirs of a Geisha

hornist · January 23, 2006

Someone said in this thread that Sibelius is a mediocre figure

among the great composers.I disagree.

For me he is a great composer,especially great symphonist,best in the 20.century.

...and about Finlandia:it is a great piece but I can't enjoy listening it anymore,because

played 300+ times(btw two times in Your beautiful Musikverein,Mr Schedenig).

Playing it is always fun...

Marian Schedenig · January 24, 2006

And to think that I still haven't heard any Sibelius live except for one of the symphonies (I think it was the second) many years ago.

Anyway, I just stumbled across this review of Classic Today's record of the year. Sounds compelling... and has anyone heard of a choral Finlandia version before?

Marian - who hasn't. :eek:

Eine Alpensinfonie (Richard Strauss; Vienna Philharmonic, Thielemann)

John Takis · January 24, 2006

Someone said in this thread that Sibelius is a mediocre figure
among the great composers.I disagree.
For me he is a great composer,especially great symphonist,best in the 20.century.

That was me. The fact that I include him among the great composers should be an indication of how much I appreciate him. But there are too many other classical composers I rate ahead of him. To each his own, though! I certainly have much Sibelius left to discover, so perhaps my estimation shall increase over time.

hornist · September 25, 2007

Now it is a great time to bring this back alive again...

... because it was 50 years ago when Jean Sibelius , finnish national composer went to glory.

All over the world there are arranged concerts and concert series to celebrate the music of him.

I was also privileged to perform his music in Dortmund , Germany , with my orchestra. We played his 7. symphony ,

Kullervo symphony(absolutrely brilliant piece from Jean's youth) and Finlandia(with choir , cause there is choir in Kullervo).

In December , jubilee-year continues for our part in England , where we'll have 5 concerts in London , Birminghan etc. and

the final concert in that tour is in Nertherlands.

Now we're in jubilee-mood it's great time to discover the music of Sibelius.

I would suggest 2. and 5. symphony for starter...

P.S. if someone happens to be around the concerts , welcome...

Marian Schedenig · September 25, 2007

Perhaps Stefan will show up and tell you that Kamen's Finlandia was much better than the one you just played...

nightscape94 · September 25, 2007

I very much enjoy his 7th Symphony (in one movement) and his Violin Concerto, which is a masterpiece of orchestral music.

Carnifex · September 26, 2007

I must add Karelia Suite to the recommended section. It makes me always proud to be a Finnish.

fommes · September 26, 2007

Except for Die Harder's Finlandia, I was Sibelius-illiterate until recently, but I must say, that 2nd symphony is sure worth checking out.

Composer_Fan · September 26, 2007

At my school, we're playing a symphonic band arrangement of Sibelius' Symphony No. 1. I'm playing the harp part (on piano...) It's a great piece! I'm especially fond of the timpani part.

hornist · September 26, 2007

Great clip to get to know the Finale from 5. symphony.

The beauty starts around 1:25 ....

Carnifex · September 26, 2007

And here is a link to the unbelievable Finale for the 2nd Symphony. Listen to it and tell after hearing are you a Sibelius fan or not?

Conductor is Esa-Pekka Salonen by the way.

Neimoidian · September 26, 2007

So far, I have only known Finlandia the Vodka. Quite enjoyable. Now I must look for the music (the samples on Amazon sounds promising).

Finlandia thread - the music of Jean Sibelius

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