An Unexpected Journey SPOILERS ALLOWED Discussion Thread

[Jay 40,337]

Hiya gang,

With The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey now having premiered and people beginning to discuss it on twitter, etc, this is the thread where people can discuss the film and what is and isn't in it without ruining things for those who wish to remain spoiler-free.

The existing thread was getting full of people speculating about specific scenes based on movie tie-in books and OST music, etc, with many people leaving the thread to not be spoiled. This is now the thread that that kind of discussion should take place in, while the old thread can be used for posts about buying tickets, and anything officially released like commercials, trailers, interviews, etc.

Thanks for playing along!

[Luke Skywalker 2,026]

this should be the spoiler free version... as i said in he other thread

[BloodBoal 7,541]

[Jay 40,337]

I can't imagine there' s a trailer attached to the end of the film, I imagine we would have heard about it by now.

Hmmm, Thranduil is the elven king who should theoretically only appear in the Mirkwood sequence. If he's really in Film 1, I guess he's in one of the flashbacks? But why?

Or maybe he is involved with Radagast's spider escape?

[BloodBoal 7,541]

[Jay 40,337]

Well I'm sure the film ends with them in the Eagle's carrock so unless he is involved in the zoomout to Erebor and Smaug's cave and eye it must be a flashback

[Marian Schedenig 9,402]

Perhaps Radagast has dealings with him?

[Jay 40,337]

That's about the only non-Flashback possibility, and why I thought of him helping Radagast with the spiders

[BloodBoal 7,541]

[Brónach 1,307]

Two ideas. a) He's brought to Thranduil and we see him for a moment before suddenly cutting to something else. b) He appears momentarily in a flashback type of sequence, like the elves at the beginning of the LOTR monologue. Like for example in the dragon story. Mirkwood isn't that far away.

I prefer the latter.

[Once 720]

I image it's kinda like Elrond's appearance in the LOTR prologue. Can't imagine how he'd fit in, though.

[JoeinAR 1,953]

has anyone actually read the Hobbit before tolkien wrote LOTR and then went back and changed the Hobbit several times?

if so how much did the ring actually play in the story?

[Jay 40,337]

See for yourself!

http://www.ringgame.net/riddles.html

[JoeinAR 1,953]

good lord no, that would require reading that stuff, I just wanted a short simple answer and I guess there isn't one.

[Jay 40,337]

No no, you just scroll down to the blue parts

[JoeinAR 1,953]

maybe I should give the series another try. I have the B&N set which I got for free working there.

[Jay 40,337]

The movie coming out in December is only the first 6 chapters of the book, combined with scenes they either took from the appendixes of LOTR or made up entirely

[JoeinAR 1,953]

greed is good,

Gordon Gekko

[Wojo 2,456]

has anyone actually read the Hobbit before tolkien wrote LOTR and then went back and changed the Hobbit several times?

if so how much did the ring actually play in the story?

good lord no, that would require reading that stuff, I just wanted a short simple answer and I guess there isn't one.

The short answer is that there have been at least three revisions of The Hobbit, based on this article.

In the original version, Bilbo beats Gollum at his guessing game, and Gollum basically gives Bilbo his ring, his precious, The One Ring, willingly, and then deliberately shows Bilbo the way out of his tunnels so that he can escape the goblins. Had Bilbo lost, Gollum would have eaten him, so there's really a change of 180 degrees that doesn't seem to fit Gollum, but that comes from looking at him from TLOTR perspective. Cute, kind, pleasant enough for a children's story.

However, if Gollum willingly gives Bilbo the Ring, then Gollum has no moral standing to call Bilbo a thief and come after him in later years to reclaim his precious, which was a very central plot element to TLOTR. So in the second edition of The Hobbit, Tolkien changed this to align with the idea that Bilbo found the Ring that Gollum didn't want him to have. He uses it to become invisible and hide from Gollum, and then basically follow him out of the tunnels to escape the goblins. Gollum curses him and hates him and brands him a thief, and tries to track down his precious and set TLOTR into motion.

Tolkien tried to write a third revision to make The Hobbit match the tone of TLOTR, but he abandoned it. He then ultimately did make a third edition that changed minor things like what some groups of elves are called.'

I don't know how hard the older revisions are to find, or what edition I have, i.e. the only version I've ever read.

But to answer your original question, Bilbo does use the Ring all the time in The Hobbit to become invisible and either hide or burgle. That early book really doesn't show, if at all, the kind of surreal other-world that Frodo slips into in TLOTR the movies, where he can see Sauron calling out to it and see the skeletons of the Nazgul and stuff like that. There isn't anything that makes us think the ring he finds is anything special or extraordinary. It's just a magical ring, he's heard of them, and this one happens to make him invisible. He uses that trick all over the place, to escape dangers and rescue his friends and infiltrate the dragon lair and then steal the token that allows him to bring peace to the great battle at the end.

[Quintus 5,498]

In Tolkien's Hobbit the Ring is a minuscule addition to the story which allows Bilbo to be invisible when he's knee deep in shit. The end.

[King Mark 3,758]

In the original version, Bilbo beats Gollum at his guessing game, and Gollum basically gives Bilbo his ring, his precious, The One Ring, willingly, and then deliberately shows Bilbo the way out of his tunnels so that he can escape the goblins. Had Bilbo lost, Gollum would have eaten him, so there's really a change of 180 degrees that doesn't seem to fit Gollum, but that comes from looking at him from TLOTR perspective. Cute, kind, pleasant enough for a children's story.

Wait, I remember reading this in the book. the guessing game was still in later versions?

He uses that trick all over the place, to escape dangers and rescue his friends and infiltrate the dragon lair and then steal the token that allows him to bring peace to the great battle at the end.

Maybe Bilbo just doesn't see all the scary stuff Frodo does. Bilbo even uses it "casually" at the beginning of LotR to dissapear from his birthday party. He doesn't seem to scared of seeing wringwraith and shit

[scallenger 581]

Maybe they don't see those things because they don't actually KNOW that it is the One Ring. Maybe if the ring knows they don't know about it's true purpose it kind of just sneaks along and slowly corrupts them instead, like it did Gollum, and in some sense Bilbo, too. But since Frodo knew full and well from the beginning of his quest what the ring really was, and that I'm sure the ring sensed danger from Frodo since his aim was to destroy the ring... that's why he saw all of those things and was always in danger in wearing the ring.

[Wojo 2,456]

In the original version, Bilbo beats Gollum at his guessing game, and Gollum basically gives Bilbo his ring, his precious, The One Ring, willingly, and then deliberately shows Bilbo the way out of his tunnels so that he can escape the goblins. Had Bilbo lost, Gollum would have eaten him, so there's really a change of 180 degrees that doesn't seem to fit Gollum, but that comes from looking at him from TLOTR perspective. Cute, kind, pleasant enough for a children's story.

Wait, I remember reading this in the book. the guessing game was still in later versions?

The original guessing game's idea was that if Gollum asked a question that Bilbo couldn't answer, Gollum would devour Bilbo, but if Bilbo asked Gollum a question that stumped him, then Gollum would give Bilbo a present. However, Bilbo picked up the Ring before the game even started and slipped it into his pocket. He could not think of a question with which to stump Gollum, so he made up the impossible question of "what have I got in my pocket?" Gollum tried four guesses and couldn't get it, so he conceded that Bilbo won and tried to find the "present" he would give him, but he lost it. We are led to believe that Gollum was searching for the very Ring that Bilbo fortunately found -- and used to stump Gollum anyways. For all we know, Gollum intended to find the Ring, slip it on his finger to become invisible, and kill Bilbo anyways. As it turned out, since he knew Bilbo was armed with Sting, he gave up looking for the Ring and just showed Bilbo the way out, conceding total defeat.

That was the original edition. In the second edition, changed to align with TLOTR, Gollum's prize for stumping him was simply doing whatever Bilbo wanted, which would include taking him out. In this revision, when Gollum lost the guessing game and agreed to take Bilbo out, he said he needed to get something to help them, which he later called his birthday present. It is clear that he was looking for the Ring so that he could kill Bilbo anyways, and not just let this great meal walk away. Once Bilbo disappeared by putting on the Ring, Gollum put two and two together to conclude that he had been "robbed."

He uses that trick all over the place, to escape dangers and rescue his friends and infiltrate the dragon lair and then steal the token that allows him to bring peace to the great battle at the end.

Maybe Bilbo just doesn't see all the scary stuff Frodo does. Bilbo even uses it "casually" at the beginning of LotR to dissapear from his birthday party. He doesn't seem to scared of seeing wringwraith and shit

If you're talking about the movie version, the ringwraiths weren't invited to Bilbo's birthday party. Plus Bilbo had been using the Ring for several decades, so waiting until just "now" to start seeing the other world would have been too contrived.

Maybe they don't see those things because they don't actually KNOW that it is the One Ring. Maybe if the ring knows they don't know about it's true purpose it kind of just sneaks along and slowly corrupts them instead, like it did Gollum, and in some sense Bilbo, too. But since Frodo knew full and well from the beginning of his quest what the ring really was, and that I'm sure the ring sensed danger from Frodo since his aim was to destroy the ring... that's why he saw all of those things and was always in danger in wearing the ring.

That's possible. When Gollum possessed the Ring, the Misty Mountains blocked the Ring's call for its true master, so it just bided its time. When Bilbo showed up, the Ring decided it had a chance to get out from under the mountain, and deceived its temporary master (Gollum) to change possession. And even when Bilbo used the Ring on his later adventures, Sauron was just "the Necromancer" and not necessarily concentrating on calling for the Ring. But the Ring started calling out to Sauron, who heard its call and started to mobilize his forces to reclaim HIS precious. Gollum sped up the process by being captured by Mordor forces, and the rest is history. When Frodo donned the Ring, it was already in full "dial home mode," allowing him to see the other world, especially since the movie showed him doing so mostly only when extreme evil was nearby, which was coincidentally the worst possible time to do so.

Bah. I need to re-read the books and get the movie out of my head.

[BloodBoal 7,541]

[Brónach 1,307]

I doubt Azanulbizar will be in the prologue. We'll probably see glimpses of it later. Around the track The Defiler, for example, Thorin or Balin might be reminiscing of stuff.

[BloodBoal 7,541]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,490]

Post and pics moved to spoiler free Hobbit thread upon request!

Sorry Incanus

[Incanus 5,831]

And where are all the spoilers in this thread!?? I have not seen one juicy bit yet!

*Mikko, who still hasn't bought his tickets for The Hobbit*

[BloodBoal 7,541]

[Lady Dimitrescu 9,125]

The trailer looks like a comedy. I like funny.

[Incanus 5,831]

Look at the third post, starting from the top.

I want something worthy of a newspaper scoop!

[BloodBoal 7,541]

[Incanus 5,831]

Good stuff! Keep it coming Messenger! This thread should have spoilers to scare the bejesus out of people!

[BloodBoal 7,541]

[TownerFan 5,421]

First major reviews from the industry's top traders (Variety and THR)

http://www.variety.com/review/VE1117948867/

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movie/hobbit-an-unexpected-journey/review/397416

They're not positive reviews. Both laments the movie feels awfully long and slow. Also, the 48fps seems to give more problems than not.

[BloodBoal 7,541]

[TownerFan 5,421]

Seems like The Hobbit is suffering the same problems of PJ's King Kong, i.e. too many things into the pot.

In this sense, I'm not surprised as well.

PS: looks like The Phantom Menace syndrome all over again

[Sandor 848]

Review on AICN:

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/59869

[TownerFan 5,421]

This one looks like an honest review:

http://www.hitfix.com/motion-captured/review-is-very-good-good-enough-for-the-hobbit-an-unexpected-journey

[BloodBoal 7,541]

[Brónach 1,307]

Exactly, the reviews mentioned filler and lame jokes instead.

[Quintus 5,498]

Flagrant spoilers now? The guy actually seems to extract some enjoyment out of posting this crap. Get a life BloodBoal, Jesus fucking Christ. Just because the thread is marked as spoilers shouldn't grant your big gob open season to run riot in it. Get a grip.

Anyway, the reviews suggest it's as I feared; Jackson's indulgent bloat he became prone to - the very same undisciplined fat which marred King Kong forever - has by all accounts filtered through into these movies. That to me at least is extremely damning. And he wants to extend it to THREE movies?

If the rest of the reviews don't perk up I may yet skip this at theatres. I despise boredom in movies which long overstay their welcome.

[BloodBoal 7,541]

[Brónach 1,307]

Hmmmm I remember you were ok with having three films at the time.

[Quintus 5,498]

So long as bloat was kept well at bay, Chaac.

[Brónach 1,307]

Like it was going to happen. If there were three films it's because there would be a serious amount of it.

But seriously, do you really believe this will be nowhere near The Phantom Menace level? If so, you disappoint me, Chaac.

No, PJ actually has chops making films. How much of them, I'm not sure.

[BloodBoal 7,541]

[TownerFan 5,421]

PS: looks like The Phantom Menace syndrome all over again

Hum, no, not at all. Most negative reviews focus on the 48fps thingy (which has no relation with the plot of the film) and the pace. No review mentioned annoying characters, a convoluted plot and lame dialogue.

What I meant is that I remember very well that when the first negative or so-so reviews of TPM came in, most of the fans said "You know, film critics always despised Star Wars movies, it's obvious they're lambasting it". Which is something similar to the LOTR fans reaction to these reviews I'm reading here and there.

And I don't like the smiley you put after your sentence. That makes you happy?? Get the hell out of here!

For me, it's just a movie, you know. Nothing to take so seriously, like any piece of escapist entertainment.

[BloodBoal 7,541]

[crumbs 15,129]

Seems it's as I predicted months ago.. instead of two sharply edited theatrical movies with the fat trimmed away for the extended cuts... they instead threw all the fat back in and found new split points to make 3 films. No wonder those extended edition DVD listings vanished overnight... there won't be any footage to put back in!

Sigh.